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I've read alot of information on george benson picking method. i tried recording different picking styles and the benson one sounded alot better than the other methods on my hollowbody guitar. I am more of a rock player and might stick to more of a conventional style when im on my strat etc (because I do alot of hybrid picking) but for jazz on a hollowbody im keen to use the gb method because it sounds fantastic (i like the idea of having different picking techniques and thus tones under my belt for different situations just like fingerstyle lends itself to acoustic guitar).
With the gb method, I seem to be able to pick fine (my thumb bends back like george bensons) but I'm not sure how to mute strings I'm not playing. Does george benson's hand float over the strings or does he rest his hand somehow to block off strings that hes not playing? In my normal playing. I use the palm of my hand to mute strings below what im picking so everything sounds clean. With the new method, i have no idea how to mute unwanted sound? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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06-22-2010 05:38 AM
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I hesitated to respond to your post, but since no one else has, I will go ahead. Pick angle is an interesting thing, and while I play pick only, pick and fingers (hybrid), and fingers only, I use basically one angle, and that is down at 45 degrees.
With the Benson thing, you are pointing up and about the same angle. I have messed with it some, but not enough to do it justice. It is a pretty major change, so I am of the opinion that I need to focus on what I am already doing, as I feel that switching back and forth will divide my practice too much, and will wind up doing neither well enough.
This falls into the same area of do you pick with your wrist as fulcrum or at the elbow. Tony DeCaprio, as a developed pro, completely changed his picking approach to the elbow as fulcrum, after studying with Joe Sgro.
Like all these sorts of things, YMMV.
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Hi there, I too use GB technique (sort of...a pale imitation really!) and I can't really add much to this at the minute because I am having the same issue. I think (and I could be wrong) that a lot of muting when using this method comes from left hand muting although this goes against a lot of how I play because it tempts the thumb over the top which I don't try to do so much anymore. Anyway, let me know if you find the answer!
Dan
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06-27-2010, 04:19 PM #4CC323 Guest
Hey,
Nice to see another Benson picking guy! I switch from Kenny Burrell style finger motion, and the tone is pretty magnificent, as you noted. I automatically end up picking closer to the neck pickup, and there is no tension in my wrist at all. I also find it much more accurate that regular, "paul gilbert" picking for phrases with lots of non-adjacent string motion.
I use this technique, and I think that building your left hand muting technique is a big part of it. That said, I use the right hand Middle Finger for muting strings higher than the ones I'm playing, and it isn't very firmly planted or anything, but it prevents the big smash of an open string in the middle of a phrase. I like to keep the 'extra' fingers curled in a bit, but not all the way to fist status, so they can float semi freely, and when playing on the low E and A strings the higher strings are easily muted. I actually removed my pickguard because I can mute better that way. For straight ahead, clean sounds I like to use what Tuck Andress calls 'oscillation' exclusively, and with a slightly dirty Kurt Rosenwinkel type sound I like to use a bit more Rotation. When I play funk and other percussive type styles in which accuracy isn't such a huge deal, I use rotation almost exclusively and that is the most challenging muting situation for me. BTW, using a Benson grip, and playing with rotation exclusively like I do for funk visually reminds me of the way Pat Martino picks, even though his approach is much more precise than my funk picking. I hope that helped!
Regards,
Chris
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I agree that muting for Benson picking is mainly down to the left hand. I don't use this type of picking myself, but experimented with it as I love the tone. My impression is that Benson often doesn't mute at all (his instructional videos are worth watching for this), the overall sound and facility being more important than a bit of reverberation from unwanted notes. Tuck Andress seems to think so in his online article and if you listen to Adam Rogers who uses a similar technique, you'll hear the odd open string ringing. Same with John Abercormbie (who of course plays with his thumb), and in my view it doesn't detract in any way from the great sound and feel these players are getting.
Overall though, I think it's how the hands work together. Benson plays very horizontally and slides between positions, so unwanted notes are easier to control. If you played more vertically/in position, it would be trickier.
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06-28-2010, 01:01 PM #6CC323 Guest
I made some interesting observations and a little bit of progress with the technique yesterday. I was practicing some of the sheets of sound vol. 2 arpeggios, and I figured out a way to upsweep using the benson grip; does anyone else who uses the technique have difficulty with that aspect of picking (upstroke sweeping)?
I bastardize the technique a bit by unlocking the thumb on the sweep upward, but it is much more accurate and comfortable than trying to use 'ordinary', standard, paul gilbert/al di meola type picking for me. Now that I have a way of doing upstroke sweeps, I feel a little more technically complete as I can squeeze off those sax type bursts of notes either direction, not that that is an incredibly necessary technique =P.
I wonder if there is a collection of professional players who use the benson technique so that we could compare left hand approaches used with the right hand being the same. Benson, Henry Johnson, Rodney Jones, Russell Malone (?), Adam Rogers (sort of, his seems to be a deviation from strict benson technique) and Sheryl Bailey are the only players who I use Benson's technique to my knowledge. Time for youtube!
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Hi. I find upstrokes/sweeps easy. The way I've explained it to people before is to think of holding the pick as a paintbrush and as you come up and the wrist naturally rotates the pick kinda ends up being 90 degrees on to the string as opposed to about 45 normally for downstrokes. You must have a pick with a sharp tip tho or it doesn't work at all. Dunlop Jazz III are the best for me (horrible picks for normal playing mind you...!) but work great with this technique.
I did a very quick youtube vid which you might find useful, I'll post it here when it's done uploading..
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Hi. I ran into the this forum while Googling around for Benson Technique stuff and I must say Dan's instructional video is very revealing. For one, I had completely misunderstood the Tuck and Patti article on the Benson technique and it turns out the approach I use is closer to George's than I'd realized (although my hand isn't quite as rigid). The remarks on muting really struck a chord, so to speak. I've always unconsciously relied on left-hand (fretboard) muting, but in spite of that I experienced feedback problems with undampened E/A strings on my GB-10 at a recent gig. The probelms were largely down to the PA, but it really made me think more about string damping. I'd certainly agree it's all down to the left hand when using this technique. Benson often curls his left thumb over the top of the fretboard when playing; I wonder if this also aids in dampening the bottom strings.
Anyway: this seems like a great forum, and I'm glad to be signed up.
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I finally found a video on exactly how GB's holds the pick! It falls right in line with the infamous Tuck Andress article's (I say infamous because it fueled so much speculation and while it was written in detail, neglected to provide a picture
Originally Posted by flashjazzcat
Hi. I ran into the this forum while Googling around for Benson Technique stuff and I must say Dan's instructional video is very revealing. For one, I had completely misunderstood the Tuck and Patti article on the Benson technique and it turns out the approach I use is closer to George's than I'd realized (although my hand isn't quite as rigid). The remarks on muting really struck a chord, so to speak. I've always unconsciously relied on left-hand (fretboard) muting, but in spite of that I experienced feedback problems with undampened E/A strings on my GB-10 at a recent gig. The probelms were largely down to the PA, but it really made me think more about string damping. I'd certainly agree it's all down to the left hand when using this technique. Benson often curls his left thumb over the top of the fretboard when playing; I wonder if this also aids in dampening the bottom strings.
Anyway: this seems like a great forum, and I'm glad to be signed up.
) description.
Look here:
A Discussion on Picking – Holding the Pick | YewGuitar
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Good find! It shows that I was more or less doing it right, but I'm still at the stage where giving in to using the third and fourth fingers as a pivot or anchor on the pickguard makes it sound much better. Unfortunately this also lessens the ability to play from the wrist.
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Do professional players like Adam Rogers and Sheryl Bailey change their technique when performing with other groups? I know Sheryl does a funk project and Rogers has been involved in funk/rock projects as well. They probably just alter their approach to suit the music and stay employable. Originally Posted by Richb
I've tried the GB thing but just feels awkward to me.
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I played the standard way..floating and resting on bridge for a very long time. Measured in decades.
I am from the Benson, McLaughlin early era and have always strived to be able to cover a lot of those machine gun pick techniques.
I think I've got it pretty well covered and have no problems copping most of Andreas Oberg's stuff. At least the licks that I have lifted. The fast arpeggios and all that.
Only problem was the effort and tension involved. Especially tension in the right wrist.
You can see it on even excellent players. You can see them start to tense up when they attempt the fast stuff.
I had a crack at the Benson technique about a year ago. I loved the tone and the power I felt by using the elbow, but it was just to scary to change. Just to hard after all those years.
I finally made the change about 4 months ago and now play no other way.
I'm telling you , everything is easier. It's a silver bullet situation.
But you have to stick at it.
NOW I know why George is so relaxed. It is SO comfortable when you get it.
I'm now playing and inventing stuff I never dreamed I could play and it's taken the hit and miss out of the really difficult stuff.
Yes there is the muting thing. Definite problem for overdrive players.
I seem to be naturally starting to mute with my left hand. Yes I still hit the odd open string. Don't care, I reckon I'll get better at it. I don't hear George hitting any open strings and he bashes the crap out of his guitar.
I reckon you can get used to both techniques when applicable.
Although there is a lot of truth in what Tuck said about your old technique falling apart.
But I find if I go back to the old way I can do it in about 5 minutes. Feels horrible though, but I reckon if you continually change from one to the other that it will become quite natural and fast to adapt.
The Benson technique was so liberating.
I would go as far as saying that it SHOULD be the primary technique that we learn instead of the old way.
Who said the old way was right in the first place? What expert told us that we had to hold a pick like that?
For me it was "The Coles Spanish Guitar Method" by Nick Maniloff.
I mean, excuse me, but what the hell do they know?
I'm kind of pissed that I spent all my guitar playing life using what for me is the "incorrect" method when I could have been developing this technique.
I'm mad at myself for not even experimenting and blindly following what I thought to be a "given".
If you are mainly a pick player then try the Benson technique.
If you need to use your fingers as well then practice changing back and forth.
If you need to use overdrive then this is probably not the technique for you.
Although I notice Adam Rogers wrist does go over the bridge so I wonder if he's muting there.
It's a great technique that one should explore. It literally changed my life as a player. Good luck.
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I've used the Benson picking style exclusively for almost 20 years now. It was taught to me by Rodney Jones who totally has that style down.
Yes, it took months for me to change over and if I tried to go back to a more traditional hand position now it wouldn't be pretty.
Yes, muting is more of a challenge but it's not a deal breaker. Usually I use my left hand to mute, but honestly it's never been that big a problem for me. I have played for years with a rockabilly/swing style band and I use an overdriven sound for that gig with my Gibson Super V so if I was going to have problems with sympathetic string ringing, it would have been while playing with them.
Yes, my whole playing changed when I started playing with the Benson technique. Everything became more relaxed and easy. My chops became much more dependable. I wasn't missing strings all the time. Part of this is due to the fact that with the Benson style you use a rest picking motion. By this I mean when you pick down the pick comes to rest against the next string. This is a HUGE improvement in technique IMHO.
Mostly I sweep down (Low string to high string) and cross pick back (high string to low string) as shown to me by Rodney but for certain effects I sweep the other way as well. Benson uses the sweep picking style to great effect to get those very fast arpeggios that run diagonally up the neck.
Bottom line. No picking technique is for everybody. Everyone has to find what works for them. I totally get it when some people bitch about the Benson style and say it's not for them. But it is perfect for some of us and let's not forget that Benson is one of the most astounding players to ever play a guitar.
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Sheryl Bailey uses GB Picking, Anyone know where we can learn this type of picking?
Thx
Ken
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I don't know if you can learn from a video but it certainly helped me to watch this Affirmation clip on YouTube. This was the clip that made me change.
He is SO relaxed. And watch some of the licks he pulls off toward the end.
Just monstrous.
Any other player would be sweating it. No one would have the evenness and tone.......some of those licks are hard for the left hand as well.
But to George it's just another day at the office.
I heard George say in an interview that his friend Pat Martino said "how do you do that?"
The thing is that once you get the pick technique happening then that style of playing CAN become available.
Don't get me wrong....if your left hand couldn't cover that stuff with your old technique then changing to the Benson technique is not going to solve that. But if you almost have that stuff down and just find it somewhat uncontrollable then the technique will make it seem easy.
As always, you have to practice for many many hours, but that's a given.
Then what happens is you get bored with all those licks and you start making some meaningful music of your own
Last edited by Philco; 08-31-2011 at 07:39 PM.
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Hi,
As Philco mentioned, the GB technique is the "silver bullet" of picking. Took me a bit to get it but now it feels so natural that the "traditional" way feels awful and is much less precise in comparison. BTW, you can vary the angle of the pick by the way it's held and can also vary how much elbow and wrist is involved, and these alterations go a long way to changing feel and tone. As for muting, I put some hair bands (scrunchies or something) at the first fret and that helped, but I found that I needed them less the better I got at the GB method. As my picking became more precise there was less need to mute.
I also noticed that I had to change the type of pick a bit to something with a sharper point, but I love experimenting with picks, anyway.
As for Sheryl, I took a Skype lesson with her a year or so ago and I had her check my picking technique to make sure it was GB correct and, happily, it was. (She's a great teacher, BTW, and I highly recommend lessons.)
Tuck Andress's site has a thesis-length exposition of picking methods at Tuck & Patti: Pick & Fingerstyle Techniques. No pics, but the video of GB performing "Affirmation" (that someone already posted) has a great view of the technique. I think the live "Take 5" also shows it well.
Joe
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BTW, as a few people have mentioned picks, I believe Benson uses (or used, this info is 20 years old) fender mediums. They are stocked in every music store in the world and cheap.
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Yes, but if you read the interview with him and his tech in VG (March, 2010), he now uses Ibanez picks with a sharper point. Of course, the Fender picks served him well on Bad Benson and every other recording on which he used them... I've found that the rounder bevel of the standard tear drop, used with the GB technique, causes the sound to disappear a bit. Sharper points bring it back.
Speaking of cheap, I tried a Blue Chip pick ($35 a pick--not a typo), standard tear drop, and the material they use feels great but I didn't like the sound, so I returned it. Their "jazz" pick seems better suited to the GB technique. My favorite picks to date are the Dunlop Gator (.96mm) and the Pickboy pos-i-grip (black) at .75mm. The PB has a slightly sharper tip and I love the sound it produces. Both picks are under $1 each...
Joe
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Damn, now I'm going to have to find that article. I can't find it online. If anybody has a link to it I'd appreciate it. Otherwise I'm going to have to find a back issue.
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Talk about a similar path. I also love love experimenting with picks. i think it's because this technique really brings out the sound of the attack. Originally Posted by bbjonz
The Fender medium gives you that nice click that Benson gets but I don't really want that.
I've spent hundreds of dollars experimenting and as I type I wait for the postman to deliver a Bluechip (forgot what I ordered) and a pack of Pro Plecs
PRO PLEC 351 Standard (24 Picks)
In the meantime I put away all my V picks, my serious collection of stupidly fat Wegen picks.........and some of the thin ones, my silly unusable Dugan pick and assorted Fenders.
And what have I settled on?.......a Dunlop Gator .88 approx .50cents
But I've decided that I am NEVER going to settle on one pick. I just change from song to song.
I know myself well enough to have realised that I'll never settle on a Guitar, an Amp or a Plectrum.
I am the reason music shops exist.
In this regard there is no hope for me.
............and I reckon I am not alone
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After reading this thread, now I'm intrigued. What is it that makes the Benson technique advantageous? Less strain, better tone, faster technique? Is it the way the pick "slices" across the string at the angle that makes it one, or all, of the above?
I still can't seem to get the technique down, even after watching some vids. Seems a bit unnatural, but like I said, I'm intrigued enough to try to change...
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1 The slice of the pick Originally Posted by orasnon
2 The movement really comes from the elbow not the wrist. This gives you incredible and predictable control. So you are not moving /rotating you hand from the wrist.
If I did a pentatonic scale.......in the rock box pattern.......2 notes per string from high E to low E you would see that my pick and hand move in a dead straight line from the high string to the lo. There is NO arc of the wrist and change of pick direction. The pick hits the string at exactly the same angle as it moves from high to low. Predictable, controllable. No changing angle.
Notice how when most players do that lick they get to the bottom string and kind of flourish or emphasise that last stroke harder than the rest. That's because their wrist is rotating as they go down the strings and when they reach the bass string it pivots off. Even a good floating picker has to work on that.
Not with this technique. You just get there the same angle as when you started except your arm from the elbow has done the pivot and your wrist adjusts so that the pick angle stays the same.
That's where the economy comes from.
The slice offers less resistance and you have simplified the whole wrist and pick angle situation.
I don't know how else to describe it.
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I don't think you could say that Benson picking is entirely elbow based; in the above posted video, you'll find Benson picking quite often with wrist motion alone.
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True enough, the wrist is not motionless. That would be quite robotic like. Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun
It's hard to explain. Perhaps someone will do a detailed video one day.
I don't have the facility to do video.
I'm still very much in the transition stage so I should defer to those who have been employing this technique for longer.
I was experimenting today. I had a very long practice session.
If I move my hand with the pick right up to the end of the fret board......so my pick is between the fretboard and the pickup on my GB10 I can actually have my forearm laying over the bridge even though the side of my hand is resting on the pick guard. This solves the muting problem. It's a little tricky but I will keep working on it. The sound is really to my liking in that spot.
Sometimes George's wrist is over the bridge, sometimes he completely rests on the pick guard. But his arm is shorter than mine. Sheryl Bailey's technique also looks a little different to me.
So I don't think there is a definitive way in regard to the placement of the forearm and wrist.
Perhaps it's more about the angle of the pick and the way it's gripped. That's probably the common element.
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