Is this an overlooked part of Metheny's sound?

[AdroitMage]

Everyone seems to know that Metheny used two Lexicons with a slight pitch bend into two 15" Speakers on opposite sides of the stage, and his Acoustic 134 amp in the middle had no pitch bend, to get his "chorused" sound. I believe that is pretty much common knowledge among us jazz guitarists.

The thing I've noticed that I've never heard anyone mention before is that his Acoustic 134 came loaded with Eminence speakers with Alnico magnets in them. So part of his sound can actually be attributed to using Alnico speakers which, as I'm sure you all know, have somewhat different tonal characteristics than speakers with ceramic magnets.

As far as the two 15's I'm not sure what speakers he was using. If anyone has any Info on that, I would love to be enlightened. I do remember that I had a picture saved on a PC I had years ago that showed Pat playing his 175 standing next to a cab with a 15" speaker in it, and the cab said JBL on it. Was he using 15" JBL's? Judging from how young he looked in that photo, I would estimate the pic was probably from the late 70s or maybe very early 80's. Would the 15's have been Alnico too or ceramic?

I just found it interesting that part of his great tone was from the use of Alnico speakers, and I've never seen that fact mentioned anywhere.

Does anyone have any more Info on that?

[pingu]

no info on speakers
but

info on the Left and Right feeds
afaik he used to slightly different delays
(not pitch changes)

very small delays something of the
order of 7ms and 14 ms

carry on

[Doctor Jeff]

Whatever he used--it's like his hair. It worked for him.

BTW listened to a bit of the first Jaco album (Jaco) recently. I think it was the first the 2 had ever recorded, with Paul Bley and Bruce Ditmas. It's pretty free jazz, not exactly easy listening. I don't hear much going on by way of effects except reverb, maybe a hint of delay. Kind of like McLaughlin's early recordings.

Somehow by the time they recorded Bright Size Life that year Pat had worked out his sound. Amazing.

[mr. beaumont]

The secret of Pat's tone is in the striped shirt.

[pingu]

ok sorry i was wrong about the
pitch thing

[AdroitMage]

From Pat Metheny’s “PM Radio” from Pat Metheny : Pat Metheny: Home

Subject: Guitar Sound
Category: Guitars
From: Jazz Online (sf,ca)

Question:

I have enjoyed your music for years! I've been curious for quite some time now as to how you acquire your distinct guitar sound: I suspect there is alot more sound processing going on than simply attenuating your guitars tone control. I would really like to know the details, from your guitar and amp settings, choice of signal processors, to your studio recording setup (microphones used, equalization, etc.). Also, what steps do you take in recording your spacious and pleasant stereo guitar sound from what what originally a monaural source?

Pat’s Answer:

“i'll be happy to go into detail about how my gear works, etc., but i had a revelatory experience a few years ago when i realized that "equipment", although certainly a component in my sound, really had little to do with why i sound like the way i sound. for years, between around 1977 to 1987, i never did ANYTHING without my "rig". i would never "sit in" unless i could have my amps and stuff there, i basically didn't do any record dates at all other than my own cause i was sure they would "mess up my sound" etc. etc. then in 1987 i went to the then USSR on a tour with the group and there were a few "jam session" situations where i HAD to play with some russian guys on their "gear" (and i use the term loosely). i played one night on a polish guitar and a czech amp. someone taped it and gave me the tape the next day. i was shocked to hear that i sounded JUST LIKE ME!!!! since then, i sit in all the time on any old thing and have a blast and do record dates without worrying (too much) that it's gonna get mixed wrong etc. etc. i feel much better knowing FOR SURE that it's more about conception and touch and spirit and soul etc., than whether my hardware was in place. i do, however, totally envy horn players who are "sonically self-contained". they ARE their sound, especially if they can tote their own axe around with 'em as they all easily can do.”

“the REAL answer to your question though is this. i used an acoustic (brand name) 134 model amp for 20 years from 1974 to 1994. that amp had the SOUND for me. flat, kind of midrangy-bright but mellow and LOUD without any distortion. a hard combination of things to find in one place. unfortunately it was also really noisy and tended to break alot. i paid alot of dues keeping that guy around. during the josh redman tour i could see i was finally gonna have to change and also i had the urge to get modern a little. i knew there were new things out there and so i started trying everything. i finally settled on the digitech 2101 dsp guitar preamp. with it, i could get the SOUND and some cool bells and whistles too, mainly pre-programmability. (no more moving the barely-hangin-on-the-134-front-panel treble control exactly 2.3 centimeters to get the sitar on "last train home" to sound right and then in the 1.7 seconds before the next tune starts trying to get EXACTLY back to where it was. etc.)”

“like the 134 always was, the output of the digitech is run into 2 lexicon prime-time digital delay lines, one on my left at 14 ms delay, one one my right at 26 ms delay. each delay has a very slight "pitch bend" controlled by the VCO (sine wave) inside the prime-time. this is what gives it the "chorused" thing that i guess i would have to say i was the first to use extensively in jazz and that seemed to have influenced alot of other guys to do the same. only thing, i HATE the way "chorus boxes" sound, my sound is mostly the "straight "134/digitech line which is behind me with NO PITCH BEND which gets blended IN THE AIR with the the two DISCRETE delay pitch bends (which are much softer than the "straight" amp volume) to get a bigger sound. i HATE when i hear the "pitch bend" and the straight mixed together and coming out of the same speaker. it drives me crazy. you can then imagine that it's hard for me in a studio. studios and records are STEREO and i have THREE discrete sources, "straight", delay left, and delay right. i don't feel like i've ever gotten it right on any record. i'm anxiously awaiting the coming days when we get to go back in and re-mix everything for everyone's home 6-track surround systems!!! i'll finally be able to get the guitar sound right!!!!!! (also, i forgot one thing, i always have a slight 450-500 ms delay mixed in right off the guitar too. if you hear it too much, it's too loud. it just lengthens the notes some.)”


……………………This came from his guitar tech and was in the Feb 2016 Vintage Guitar article…………………………

"Digitech 2101 preamp - two outputs into a QSC PLX 1804 to a 4X10 cabinet and a 2X10 both with JBL speakers. The other 2 Digitech outputs go to a TC Electronics M-2000 effects unit to another QSC amp to 2 1X15 cabinets."

From this and what was available at the time, Metheny probably used 15” JBL speakers.

Thanks for that great info. I have read the quote from his website before, HUGE Metheny fan here. I had never seen the one you posted from his guitar tech, though.

It does look like his 15's were probably JBL's then. That would mean that his 15's were alnico magnet speakers too, because, correct me if I'm wrong, but all of the vintage 15" JBL guitar speakers I've seen were alnico not ceramic.

That would mean that ALL of the speakers he used were alnico. That's interesting to me because every widely used jazz amp I can think of right now uses ceramic magnet speakers or a few newer models with neo speakers. Ceramic speakers kind of became ubiquitous in the jazz guitar amps because of their generally higher headroom.

So Pat using all alnico speakers on all those classic, Grammy Award winning albums is an interesting point, IMO, when pretty much everyone else in jazz guitar was using ceramic.

Anyawy, I found it interesting and had never seen that mentioned anywhere before. Maybe I'm the only one who finds that interesting? LOL.

You know, alnico speakers do that thing that when you really hit the strings harder and the peaks hit the speaker they compress somewhat and roll of some of the highs, same thing if you "push them" with volume. They are also known for having a softer attack. Many players like that for other styles of music. They are not common in jazz amps though.

[Doug B]

The secret of Pat's tone is in the striped shirt.

I've got the striped shirt but not the hair. Damn it! I came so close.

[AdroitMage]

I've got the striped shirt but not the hair. Damn it! I came so close.

He hasn't been wearing the striped shirt much lately, I miss it. Hey Pat, bring back the striped shirt, we miss it.

[AdroitMage]

@AdroitMage said “It does look like his 15's were probably JBL's then. That would mean that his 15's were alnico magnet speakers too, because, correct me if I'm wrong, but all of the vintage 15" JBL guitar speakers I've seen were alnico not ceramic.”

“That would mean that ALL of the speakers he used were alnico. That's interesting to me because every widely used jazz amp I can think of right now uses ceramic magnet speakers or a few newer models with neo speakers. Ceramic speakers kind of became ubiquitous in the jazz guitar amps because of their generally higher headroom.”

Yes. Vintage JBL speakers used alnico magnets. He probably uses/used JBL D130 F 15” speakers(pictured below) in his cabinets. The D130 was also used by guitarist Dick Dale/Fender in Dale’s Showman/Double Showman cabinets.The JBL D140 F was used in/for bass guitar cabinets. Sunn and Ampeg used them for example.

I think it is interesting also that Mr.Metheny was using solid state amplifiers instead of tube amps with Alnico speakers. Makes sense though, he was going after his clear and rounded tone as opposed to gritty and compressed.

Yes, Fender used to offer the D130F in the Showman and Dual showman cabs, and even as a "factory upgrade" for Fender Twins. The F in the name D130F is for Fender. JBL improved on the design of the original D130 to make it even better and play more friendly in guitar amps. Think sound even better and not blow, LOL. JBL also developed 12" and 10" models for Fender, strangely enough, designated as the D112F and D110F respectively. The D130F is highly renowned in some circles for their clean hifi 'ish tone, which is certainly why Pat used them.

Tube amps can sound absolutely beautiful for jazz, though, you generally need one with enough headroom to deliver a beautiful clean tone at volume before the power tubes start to break up. Pretty power tube clipping is revered by the blues and rock crowd, but not so much by us jazz players. However, in tube amps, with the big transformers needed for the output tubes to have big headroom and big cabs with speakers with heavy magnets, that can mean a big and heavy amp, like a big and heavy Fender Twin. I think that is part of the reason why solid state became popular with jazz players. Though, you can also mic a small tube amp, like a Fender Princeton

Also, though, a well-designed solid state amp can sound absolutely beautiful for clean jazz tones, too. The good news is that a good solid state amp can also sound "tubey" on clean, especially if the amp has a lot of headroom. That's why 'most' of the highly regarded jazz amps are clocking in excess of 100 watts, 200 watts or even more. The high end Clarus amps are clocking in excess of 600 watts RMS. You mentioned Pat using 2 x QSC PLX 1804 power amps. Those babies are 2 channel power amps, clocking in at 900W per channel @ 4 Ohms and 600W per channel @ 8 Ohms. That's A LOT of headroom. In addition to that, solid state amps have an even faster attack than tube amps, which some feel helps with articulating fast complex jazz lines.

Pat is a gifted musical genius. I don't think anyone here would argue with that statement. He is also a "tone meister" who is meticulous about having great tone, because that is really important to translate his great phrasing, style, technique, and mastery of the instrument to the listeners. He knows that having great tone is just part of what being a great musician is.

[Litterick]

The shirts are hooped, not striped.

[AdroitMage]

The shirts are hooped, not striped.

What's the difference?

[Litterick]

What's the difference?

Hoops are horizontal.

[AdroitMage]

Hoops are horizontal.

Okay then, someone needs to tell Amazon and other retailers, because I see shirts all over the Internet listed as stripped that look just like this, here's the link: Amazon.com

[jazzshrink]

I've got the striped shirt but not the hair. Damn it! I came so close.

Buy a wig. It works for Pat.

Hoops are horizontal.

Yeah, sure. That's why we call it the "stars & hoops"

[Jonah]

What's the difference?

The sound of course!

[Dennis D]

The secret of Pat's tone is in the striped shirt.

I thought I'd heard somewhere at one point he'd stumbled upon changing from an ebony clothespin to a pine one, but still keeping the stainless steel clothespin ' spring ' . There was also evidence he'd toyed with the number of wraps on that rubber band that held the clothespin in place.

Or maybe not....

: )

[pingu]

1343225[/URL]]Hoops are horizontal.

unless you’re extremely layed back

[Dennis D]

unless you’re extremely layed back

The Breton Stripe :

[AdroitMage]

The Breton Stripe :

I'll take the girl, striped shirt or "au naturel."

[Mick-7]

Brigitte Bardot? (looks like her). I'm not greedy, I'd be willing to settle for the non-striped car she's reclining on.

Turns out that Pat had a good reason for wearing horizontally striped shirts: he fasted often and according to this Psychology Today article....

"It’s a common belief that if you want to appear slimmer than you actually are, you should wear clothes with vertical stripes. The classical pinstriped business suit would be an example of this sort of clothing hiding a few extra pounds.

It turns out that this folk belief is fundamentally wrong. A square composed of horizontal lines appears taller and narrower than an identical square made up of vertical lines.

This illusion was discovered by Hermann von Helmholtz in 1925, and is also known as the Helmholtz illusion. Helmholtz’s explanation of the illusion was that a filled out area looks longer than an unfilled area of the same size. His thought was that the figure with horizontal stripes looks filled and hence longer from bottom up, whereas the square with vertical lines looks filled and hence longer from left to right. This then generates the illusion that the square with horizontal lines is taller and slimmer than the same-sized square with vertical stripes, which looks short and fat.

Although Helmholtz mentioned the application to fashion, he didn’t test whether the illusion would persist when actually applied to human figures. Over the years researchers, fashion designers and many others have speculated whether the illusion was an artifact of the two-dimensional square representations that had been used in Helmholtz’ original studies.

In 2009, however, British psychologists Peter Thompson and Kyriaki Mikellidou followed up with similar studies using three-dimensional female models. And lo and behold! The illusion persisted.

When two people are the same size, a person wearing a horizontal-striped dress appears to be the thinner of the two. In order for the them to appear to be the same size, the person wearing the horizontal stripes would have to be six percent wider than the person dressed in vertically-striped clothing.

So, you can throw out the pinstriped suit and get the clothing with horizontal stripes."

From: What Makes You Look Fat: Vertical or Horizontal Lines? | Psychology Today

[AdroitMage]

Just to keep the totally preposterous theme going, do you know who else wears shirts like that a lot?

Mimes.

Maybe Pat really likes mimes?

[Mick-7]

I'm sure he does, they make the best audience, don't talk during your performance.

I saw an old Dick Cavett show the other day, his guest was Marcel Marceau, he was truly remarkable.

[Christian Miller]

Apparently humanity developed striped clothing before the idea of the street and the front door…

Humanity - keeping its priorities straight since 8,000BCE


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AdroitMage]

I'm sure he does, they make the best audience, don't talk during your performance.

True, but it still could be kind of distracting if you had a whole audience full of mimes doing their 'mime thing' during the show, LOL

[Dennis D]

Brigitte Bardot? (looks like her). I'm not greedy, I'd be willing to settle for the non-striped car she's reclining on.

Yup, it's BB.
I was originally going to use this photo w/ Sasha D & guitar, but BB wasn't wearing stripes. : )