Jerry Garcia

**Metal Fingers** · 05-17-2010, 04:25 PM

Ok first off please spare me the negatives(this goes out to the 1% of folks on here).Unless constructive...

I am faceless here so I can admit he may be my favorite player/musician.
However most if not all the players I've talked to that I actually look up to never seem to be too into his playing.
...But for me it's like its my roots. I have gone long periods with out listening to him in the past.I think it was mainly because I was trying to move on but another part of me wasn't really being true.
I think if I understood more of what he was doing(rather than earing it out) it would help me to that next step.

So I guess the purpose of this post is to get some insight into what jazz guys don't dig about his playing.
Is it because he repeats a lot of runs?

I am only really talking about his live playing.
any insight would be gratefully appreciated.

**JohnW400** · 05-17-2010, 04:46 PM

The Dead are the fathers of the Jam Band. How could you not at least respect that?

Besides, Jerry could play. He was't all pentatonic riff's. I remember buying Workingmans Dead when I was 12. And later Europe 72. Ton's of great guitar playing.

And believe me I'm no Dead Head as those are the only two (3) LP's that I ever bought by them.

**derek** · 05-17-2010, 04:49 PM

You know, I like Jerry okay. His playing seemed to fit The Dead really well. I have a disc with he and David Grisman (great mando player) called Grateful Dawg, and it is really nice. His playing just has never done much for me, but he was a solid player. Of the jam band guys, I really like Jimmy Herring and Trey. Dunno if that answers your question or not.

**NSJ** · 05-17-2010, 04:50 PM

He's sloppy a lot of the time. I think it was the drugs, no?

The space fluff never did much for me, whereby he goes into total meandering mode.

I liked the uptempo dance numbers, but I think his playing is helped/enhanced by the nice, loose groove and the general lack of heaviness of the two drummers behind him who are very under-rated--I'm talking about the modal stuff and stuff like Bertha/Going Down the Road Feeln Bad/China Cat Sunflower/ etc. At this point, I forgot what other tunes go with these (usually played in tandem).

**FatJeff** · 05-17-2010, 05:01 PM

I must have seen them 4 or 5 times in the early 80s and they never quite id it for me. I had a roommate who was a total deadhead and when i told him this, he said, "Were you tripping on acid at the time?" When I said no, I wasn't tripping when I saw them, he said "Well, that's the problem." It seemed to me that if I had to be on LSD in order to enjoy the music - how was that my fault??

Anyway, I guess he was a decent guitar player, but like Derek mentioned, Trey is pretty much the man for me, at least in that genre.

**Metal Fingers** · 05-17-2010, 05:08 PM

ya a good china/rider(or china cat sunflower >i know you rider in to the non dead heads) is a perfect example or the in between ,tight,melding of tunes almost seamlessly is where the good stuff is at.

I'm interested in the technical side of this and when I think of his great playing I can refine it right down to 72'-73' and 77'-78' thats when he was the most ripping imo.

**Metal Fingers** · 05-17-2010, 05:13 PM

I was one of the younger kids on the phish scene.I was 16 in 1990.I saw them a lot.fell off around 95.

they just played on jimmy falon to celebrate the stones exile on main street re release.worth checking out if you like that kind of stuff.
Jimmy herring is fantastic as well.His latest solo release is great.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-17-2010, 11:01 PM

the dead got me into improvisation. jerry was and always will be one of my biggest influences.

**fep** · 05-18-2010, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Metal Fingers

I think if I understood more of what he was doing(rather than earing it out) it would help me to that next step.

Theoritically:

In addition to using the regular major scale (and it's modes if you like to think that way) he used the penatonic and blues scale.

And this scale, it probably has a name but I don't know it:

In C major: C D Eb E F Gb G A Bb B C (it's almost a chromatic scale, he wouldn't necessarily run that scale from top to bottom but his note choices came from it).

Also, he seemed very aware of chord tones and used target tones and arpeggios.

He also had a good ear and could play melodically.

Jerry's approach was similar to a jazz approach but in general with more blues/rock/pop type chord changes.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-18-2010, 10:24 AM

mixolydian's a must for jammin' w/jerry

**derek** · 05-18-2010, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by fep

Theoritically:

In addition to using the regular major scale (and it's modes if you like to think that way) he used the penatonic and blues scale.

And this scale, it probably has a name but I don't know it:

In C major: C D Eb E F Gb G A Bb B C (it's almost a chromatic scale, he wouldn't necessarily run that scale from top to bottom but his note choices came from it).

Also, he seemed very aware of chord tones and used target tones and arpeggios.

He also had a good ear and could play melodically.

Jerry's approach was similar to a jazz approach but in general with more blues/rock/pop type chord changes.

I think this is spot on. Jerry's gift for me, was his ability to play thru the changes in a melodic way in that genre. Just not as much of that as you would think there should be (Dicky Betts comes to mind). His note choices were fairly predictable, but always fit what the rest of the band was doing, which is what I was alluding to upstream.

To say that a player was melodic, and really fit in with the rest of the band, while not being overly prominent (like Jimmy or Trey), is frankly a compliment to me. As guitarists, we are used to being spotlight guys, but Jerry had more of a Jim Hall quality than a Pat Martino quality, if I can put it into more of a jazz context.

I agree about Jimmy's Lifeboat. Frankly, I have not stopped listening to it since it came out. I have been copping some of his lines, and have been on the hunt for that tone, short of buying a Fuchs amp, or spending the $350 for the H&K tube factor pedal he uses.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 05-18-2010, 10:48 AM

And let us not forget...

Hey, I resemble that remark!

**Metal Fingers** · 05-18-2010, 12:31 PM

right on, thanks guys!

so I guess I do sort of know what he's up to.I think his early banjo playing was a huge influence on his playing...
this is what I suspected or it sounds like to me.On blues stuff.
The relative minor(major pentatonic)over the I,mixo over the IV w/ pentatonic (minor),and straight pentatonic on the V.Some mixo over the I but too much doesn't seem to sound right.

I am going to try out that scale Fep,thanks.

I still have to think too much to play arps in a song and not sound like I'm just playing arps.the chord tone thing is coming along...slowly

I think Jimmy Herring is a great guy to borrow lines from.Especially if you like bluesy rock or fusion.I think I am going to start.He has some lessons(clips)on youtube as well.
the first time I saw him with his band was in 92'(aquarium rescue unit) my jaw was hanging open.Not too many people were in the know about him back then...I was lucky enough to stumble across that.They had the heavy metal horns with them.To this day one of the best funk party's I've been to.and it was all free.gotta love the montreal jazz fest!

**Gramps** · 05-19-2010, 12:43 PM

Garcia suprised me with the "So What" CD with David Grissman. As straight ahead jazz as I've hear him play.

Songs include a couple of versions of:
So What
Bags Groove
Milestones

Worth a listen if you haven't heard it. Very different than the Dead stuff.

**rabbit** · 05-19-2010, 01:47 PM

Yeah, it ain't jazz, but don't forget 'Old & In the Way.'

Check the discs for the original stuff, youtube isn't really adequate.

**rcaballero** · 10-29-2012, 02:02 PM

I dig The Dead! Mixolydian and major pentatonic licks for days! :-)

**eddy b.** · 10-29-2012, 04:13 PM

I miss the Dead I miss Jerry's playing. I loved them and the scene that was a part of them. Long Live the Dead!!!!

**Octal** · 10-30-2012, 04:06 AM

"All the years combine
They melt into a dream
A broken angel sings from a guitar..."

Jerry was very sloppy, but he had his moments. He tends to be over-rated by those who love him and underrated by almost everyone else. He used a lot of Mixolydian/Bebop stuff. If not Mixo then Ionian or Dorian.

I absolutely love the dead, but their chords aren't very exciting. They had harmonically simple songs, but it's what they did with them.

**zigzag** · 10-30-2012, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by derek

I agree about Jimmy's Lifeboat. Frankly, I have not stopped listening to it since it came out.

I'm a huge Herring fan since Lifeboat. I'm a huge Garcia fan, also, and dig his work with Grissman. But, as is often the case with the Beatles, I enjoy a lot of the Dead's music re-done by others (e.g. Friend of the Devil done by Tony Rice).

**Reg** · 10-30-2012, 09:43 AM

I knew Jerry... not well but met him through Grisman, one of my good friends, Matt Eakle a wonderful jazz player, one of the best in the world... is the flutist in Dave Grisman's band...

I grew up in SF, going to and playing concerts in 60's and 70's... The Dead were everywhere all the time... not really my thing, but once in a while they would create very magical moments... could also be pretty lose.

**miken** · 10-30-2012, 06:18 PM

The Dead sure is not jazz music. But, it's not any other kind of music either. There ain't nothin' like the good ol' Grateful Dead. The next time you get in your car, throw in a good dead tape and turn it up. After a couple of minutes, look at your self in the rear view and if you don't have a smile on your face keep driving and go to the nearest clinic. There might be something wrong with you.

**jazzgtrl4** · 10-30-2012, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

the dead got me into improvisation. jerry was and always will be one of my biggest influences.

same here

**Dad3353** · 10-30-2012, 07:42 PM

Not 'pure' jazz, maybe, but what a great player. I'm not that sure that I'm a fan of 'pure' jazz, either..! He will be missed a long time here.

**chancho** · 10-30-2012, 11:42 PM

Like Derek and Fat Jeff Im a Trey follower also. I dig the jam band scene and love it when they would go into the improv-zone so believe me when I say I really made an honest effort to get into Jerry's stuff but simply wasnt moved by it. Trey, however opened me up to enjoying jazz. And I just could listen to him for days (and I have).

Pat Martino is presently doing the same for me. He takes me back to Trey and Trey returns me to Pat. Pretty cool huh?