Eric Clapton vs. Jimmy Page vs. Jeff Beck vs. Jimi Hendrix

**Litterick** · 11-10-2018, 11:53 PM

According to Stuart Nicholson in the Cambridge Companion to Jazz (2002),

When the band toured the USA in 1967, Rolling Stone pointed out that Cream 'had been called a jazz group.' Indeed, during their tour many critics credited Cream with combining jazz and rock: 'The healthiest development in popular music these days is the extraordinary convergence of jazz and rock,' said Life magazine in 1968.

Clapton spoke to Rolling Stone in 1970 about Baker:

And he’s really a leader. I always felt that if I was going to be in his band he’d be the leader and I’d be instructed as to what I should play. I would have to fit into whatever concept he wanted to lay down. It’s a different thing again, because he’s much more of a jazz-based kind of musician. The Cream was really a jazz group, a jazz-rock group – and the jazz part of it was what I didn’t like.

**Kirk Garrett** · 11-11-2018, 12:21 AM

Yeah, “jazz” was a word loosely employed in the 60s, especially by people who didn’t play it, and didn’t like it....

**Hep To The Jive** · 11-11-2018, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by Kirk Garrett

Yeah, “jazz” was a word loosely employed in the 60s, especially by people who didn’t play it, and didn’t like it....

yea, the jazz police back then let them take liberties, what a shame!

**Kirk Garrett** · 11-11-2018, 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

yea, the jazz police back then let them take liberties, what a shame!

Really, did the Police play jazz too?

**Hep To The Jive** · 11-11-2018, 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by Kirk Garrett

Really, did the Police play jazz too?

If I say yes, will they be in trouble too?

**Ray175** · 11-11-2018, 04:30 AM

In the early 60s Baker and Bruce would also have been exposed to the work of guys like Joe Harriott who placed every instrument centre stage, where at times a series of highly talented people played "solos" at the same time - interplay being the name of the game. Much of Cream's extended live work can be read in this light.

Harriott's three albums - Freeform, Abstract and Movement were part of the "cool" scene in which Baker and Bruce had certainly been immersed.

Does this mean that Cream played jazz? - probably not, but their freestyle, freeform application was clearly innovative in a rock/blues context and probably influenced by guys like Harriott

Originally Posted by Litterick

British jazz and blues were wrapped up together in the early sixties. The predominant jazz style in Britain since the Second War was Trad, which was a lot closer to straightforward blues than the jazz being made in New York. Before British blues created its own identity, it was seen as a kind of jazz. The early blues bands were staffed by jazzmen, particularly Alexis Korner's Blues Incorporated, which employed Jack Bruce, Charlie Watts, Long John Baldry, Ronnie Jones, Danny Thompson, Graham Bond, Cyril Davies, and Dick Heckstall-Smith, among others.

**Litterick** · 11-11-2018, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by Ray175

Does this mean that Cream played jazz? - probably not, but their freestyle, freeform application was clearly innovative in a rock/blues context and probably influenced by guys like Harriott

Contemporary writers emphasise Cream's difference from other rock bands, particularly in extended improvisation. Reviewing the first two albums for Life, Richard Saltounstall Jr. wrote in January 1968, "these British rockers have displayed the spontaneity, sophistication and mood of rebellion that originally belonged to jazz."

**princeplanet** · 11-11-2018, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Litterick

Contemporary writer's emphasise Cream's difference from other rock bands, particularly in extended improvisation. Reviewing the first two albums for Life, Richard Saltounstall Jr. wrote in January 1968, "these British rockers have displayed the spontaneity, sophistication and mood of rebellion that originally belonged to jazz."

Spontaneity and mood of rebellion, sure, but sophistication? I'm sorry but that is just highly insulting to Jazz musicians, from just about any period. Time to put a stop to this BS now, unless anyone reading this thread actually thinks that Clapton's simplistic noodling was as "sophisticated" as, say, what Wayne Shorter was doing during the same period?

**Kirk Garrett** · 11-11-2018, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

If I say yes, will they be in trouble too?

You seem to think I’m a jazz purist. You’re confused.

**Greentone** · 11-11-2018, 02:57 PM

Both Charlie Watts and Ginger Baker were trained as jazz drummers--in the traditional sense. Jack Bruce, a classically trained cellist, played upright bass in jazz bands and moved into the blues scene.

**Peter C** · 11-11-2018, 03:05 PM

Wow, 6 pages talking about pop-rock in the gear section of a jazz forum! Princeplanet's post is spot on, IMO.

**Mike Anderson** · 11-11-2018, 04:05 PM

Eddie Hazel.

**Hep To The Jive** · 11-11-2018, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Kirk Garrett

You seem to think I’m a jazz purist. You’re confused.

You mean, been dazed and confused for so long it's not true?

**Hep To The Jive** · 11-11-2018, 05:25 PM

Seems like people need validation for music to be jazz to enjoy and talk about on the forum. I probably agree that players discussed here had very little to do with jazz. But if someone see them as jazzy, or venturing into jazz, I have no problem with that either. All I'm saying music doesn't need to be jazz to be great. Jazz is not the be-all end-all of music, plenty of good stuff outside of it.

And not all music needs to be sophisticated either. Not much sophistication in rocknroll. That's why it's so good!

**Greentone** · 11-11-2018, 05:51 PM

Hell yes. Eddie Hazel!

**archtopeddy** · 11-11-2018, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Hell yes. Eddie Hazel!

Do you wanna come with me and do the Cosmic Slop!

**Kirk Garrett** · 11-11-2018, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

You mean, been dazed and confused for so long it's not true?

Yes! Hope so

**Greentone** · 11-11-2018, 08:55 PM

Maggot Brain has one of the best solos ever.

**Greentone** · 11-11-2018, 08:56 PM

Oh, forgot to plug Steve Cropper there.

Steve Cropper!

**Lobomov** · 11-12-2018, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by Kirk Garrett

Really, did the Police play jazz too?

One of my favorite bands with Andy Summers one of my favorit guitar players .. tho Stings first band after The Police with Bradford Marsalis, Kenny Kirkland, Darryl Jones and Omar Hakim was also a great act.

**jzucker** · 11-12-2018, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Peter C

Wow, 6 pages talking about pop-rock in the gear section of a jazz forum! Princeplanet's post is spot on, IMO.

jimi is not pop-rock. If you don't recognize his genius, dare I say you probably don't understand jazz.

Over on my Modern Jazz Guitar forum on facebook, Jimi is revered by members Kreisberg, Adam Rogers, etc. 'nuff said.

**Peter C** · 11-12-2018, 09:43 AM

I already expressed appreciation for Hendrix in an earlier post, though most of the music discussed here could be termed as "accessible" rock. The fact is that Jimi didn't understand jazz, as he would have been the first to recognize. Btw, your rather condescending tone could easily get you into a scrap, but not with me

**jzucker** · 11-12-2018, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Peter C

I already expressed appreciation for Hendrix in an earlier post, though most of the music discussed here could be termed as "accessible" rock. The fact is that Jimi didn't understand jazz, as he would have been the first to recognize. Btw, your rather condescending tone could easily get you into a scrap, but not with me

What does it mean to understand jazz? Heck, 90% of the folks on jazz forums don't understand jazz. Hendrix played with Miles and Miles asked him to join his band so in my mind, he knew way more about jazz and certainly about the spirit of jazz improv than most folks posting in forums.

Of "Band of Gypsies - Machine Gun", in the modern jazz guitar forum on facebook Adam Rogers wrote, "One of the greatest performances in music".