Can the Grateful Dead be considered Jazz?

[christianm77]

no, you're right that grass picked up the players taking solo breaks from jazz. Old time style you just play the tune over and over. Very much like Irish music, which is no surprise.

but bluegrass is so different from jazz, though. You wouldn't mistake Earl Scruggs for a bebop banjo player. that's what I meant.

But I see what you mean, though. probably a bad example

Sure, although I do hear a lot of common ground between bluegrass and swing, language, licks, rhythmic phrases and so on... again for obvious reasons....

bebop banjo. Now there's a road less travelled :-)

[fep]

Looks like jazz to me:

But, it's actually bluegrass. (Miles Davis cover at 18:25)

Hey Reg... if you ever see this... Did you ever play with either of these guys?

[boatheelmusic]

I think Jerry and Carlos get too much credit for playing anything besides the pentatonic scale.....

[fep]

I think Jerry and Carlos get too much credit for playing anything besides the pentatonic scale.....

You think Jerry was a pentatonic scale player? I always thought of him as more often a chord tone player or an embellishment of the melody player.

[boatheelmusic]

Agree, he got a lot of credit for moving just outside pentatonic. But he certainly was not at the level of his betters in the jazz world.

[mr. beaumont]

Boy, there's a statement that'll make more jazz fans.

Sounds more like Coltrane than Chuck Berry to me.

[boatheelmusic]

Jeff, we both know you could play his lines or comparable in your sleep!!

[PMB]

Sure, although I do hear a lot of common ground between bluegrass and swing, language, licks, rhythmic phrases and so on... again for obvious reasons....

bebop banjo. Now there's a road less travelled :-)

[NSJ]

Boy, there's a statement that'll make more jazz fans.

Sounds more like Coltrane than Chuck Berry to me.

And, for the record, they do a damn fine Chuck Berry too!

Can't decide if Help on the Way-->Slipknot-->Franklin's Tower is better than Scarlet-->Fire. Gotta go with Scarlet-->Fire.

But, sometimes, actually, many times, nothing is better than China Cat-->Rider. Seriously, who cares if it's a bunch of simple folk songs. The groove and feel are so intense and beautiful, nothing else matters .

For the record, my favorite musician in the band was Phil. The first rule of any band is: if you have a good bass player, you have the real potential for good music.

And he was probably the most unique bass player around .

These days, JRAD ( and when Phil joins them, they become Phil-RAD) are the best ones around in terms of doing that repertoire proper justice. They Bring an energy to the music that the Dead probably last had in the 1970s and episodically in the late 80s. I think Joe Russo is an incredible drummer, having played in FUrther.

The keyboard player in JRAD is really good too. The funny thing is, I think the rest of the band are just Berkee music grads who have no connection to the Grateful Dead. At this point, they do a much better job then Dead and Company

[mr. beaumont]

Jeff, we both know you could play his lines or comparable in your sleep!!

Only because I spent hours transcribing them when I was a kid!

[NoReply]

Garcia and Branford

[NSJ]

A more useful question is, "how do jazz musicians interact with popular music????? How do they learn to play more folkloric or popular music without overplaying or outright shitting on the tune??



10 Tales From Branford Marsalis? Time Spent With the Grateful Dead - Speakeasy - WSJ

“They didn’t know who the hell I was. Phil was the only guy who knew who I was. They had had jazz guys sit in before with varying degrees of success. Mostly, lack of success because a lot of the guys who are up there playing with them didn’t grow up playing popular music. So they just played their stuff on top of the music.”


“Every time I had played at a popular concert, I was in a horn section. There are specific spots where you play and specific spots where you don’t play. I’d never been in a situation where I was up there and they said ‘OK, let’s do this song.’ What I started to figure out was something I learned as a kid playing in New Orleans. One of the rules of playing in popular styles of music is that the singer is the most important person on stage – you can’t step on the singer. Then it was a matter of figuring out how I could function in a group context. One of the things I basically did was never play a note when [Jerry] sang the first chorus. I always waited to the second chorus. The world just doesn’t need that much sax playing in the middle of a song.”

When we did ‘Bird Song,’ the first thing I wanted to do was learn the form of the song. The Dead have some incredibly tricky tunes, but for the most part, popular songs are quite simple. People don’t want to go to music school when they’re listening to their music. Jamming doesn’t mean you can play whatever you want. You have a tremendous amount of leeway in context. If you understand the rules, then you have context. But it was a jam session. And I wasn’t going to step on the mainline. I was going to compliment what Jerry was doing. I would just respond to what I was hearing.”
“I didn’t think of him as a guitar player. There’s a lot of guys, you get all these anthemic rock solos – but I’m always impressed with musicians instead of instrumentalists. And to me, Jerry was a musician. He played no more than the song needed to be successful.”

[Thumpalumpacus]

Kenny G can be pretty hip and jazzy. Listen to this video about playing Kenny G. on the guitar.

[link removed -- Thump]

Hey even the solo sounds kinda jazzy

[link removed -- Thump]

A lot of useful guitar stuff on a Kenny G. tune!

David

No, I'm not talking Kenny Garrett, but Kenny G. Forgive my posting this here, but this is who I'm talking about:

Kenny G is to jazz as McDonald's is to home cookin'. Kenny Garrett is a hell of a player. Kenny G plays elevator jazz.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Also, though I'm no big fan of theirs at all, and this song is not jazzy at all, it moves me, and that's all that really matters, ain't it?

[NSJ]

Also, though I'm no big fan of theirs at all, and this song is not jazzy at all, it moves me, and that's all that really matters, ain't it?

That is such a beautiful, wonderful tune, if someone can't dig that song, I don't know what to say man. The entire album is a masterpiece.

It's fall so wonderfully for solo guitar, too; all the melody notes are right there in the key of G on the second and first strings, and the chords are easy. You could probably harmonize it anyway you want, that's the great thing about popular and folkloric tunes. The page is wide open for you to infuse your personality.

[destinytot]

[QUOTE=NSJ;663989]A more useful question is, "how do jazz musicians interact with popular music????? How do they learn to play more folkloric or popular music without overplaying or outright shitting on the tune??that'sOTE]
Don't know the Grateful Read's music. but I think that's a really great question. (New thread?)

[Boston Joe]

Agree, he got a lot of credit for moving just outside pentatonic. But he certainly was not at the level of his betters in the jazz world.

Jerry was a bit more accomplished than a lot of people think. He came from a "keep it simple" folk tradition, but he did have some jazz chops in his back pocket. Somewhere, I've got a concert recording with a version of "Stella Blue" (which, BTW, would be a great tune for a jazz singer to do) that features an utterly devastating diminished run. The fact that he played simply has a lot more to do with the genre he was working in than what he knew.

[Boston Joe]

[QUOTE=destinytot;664069]

A more useful question is, "how do jazz musicians interact with popular music????? How do they learn to play more folkloric or popular music without overplaying or outright shitting on the tune??that'sOTE]
Don't know the Grateful Read's music. but I think that's a really great question. (New thread?)

Check out the album "Blue Light Rain" by the group Jazz is Dead. The rhythm section on that disc is Alfonso Johnson and Billy Cobham. They play it REALLY simple. Nice fat backbeat and some simple, tasty bass lines that groove like hell. It's practically a clinic on how jazz guys should play rock.

Also, there's a DVD of a Phil and Friends show featuring Scofield. It's fascinating to watch because at the beginning, Sco is trying to play his regular stuff, and it's not working. He catches on pretty quick, and switches to a less idiosyncratic style.

[h1pst3r88]

Agree, he got a lot of credit for moving just outside pentatonic. But he certainly was not at the level of his betters in the jazz world.

I always find these kinds of associations, "player X only played Mixo"; "Player Y never left the pentatonic scale..." as kind of missing the point. It's all notes in one sequence or another anyway.

Why do we believe playing some sequences/intervals of notes make one an inherently 'better' player than one who plays a different sequence of intervals if the goal is to make music?

Stripping away all ingrained notions of one scale being 'simple' and another being 'advanced', why does the sequence of notes make any difference at all if people dig it.

We are musicians, not note playing machines... there's a difference, right?

[Boston Joe]

I always find these kinds of associations, "player X only played Mixo"; "Player Y never left the pentatonic scale..." as kind of missing the point. It's all notes in one sequence or another anyway.

Why do we believe playing some sequences/intervals of notes make one an inherently 'better' player than one who plays a different sequence of intervals if the goal is to make music?

I saw some blues documentary once, and I think it was B.B. King who said something like, "The simplicity of the blues is intentional. You've got three chords and five notes. You've gotta play honest because there's nothing to hide behind."

[lammie200]

I saw some blues documentary once, and I think it was B.B. King who said something like, "The simplicity of the blues is intentional. You've got three chords and five notes. You've gotta play honest because there's nothing to hide behind."

Except BB, by his own admission, didn't know "chords", just single note stuff.

[Boston Joe]

Except BB, by his own admittance, didn't know "chords", just single note stuff.

And this invalidates his statement how?

[lammie200]

And this invalidates his statement how?

Sorry, I forgot the

[Boston Joe]

Sorry, I forgot the

LOL. Fair enough!

[mr. beaumont]

That is such a beautiful, wonderful tune, if someone can't dig that song, I don't know what to say man. The entire album is a masterpiece.

It's fall so wonderfully for solo guitar, too; all the melody notes are right there in the key of G on the second and first strings, and the chords are easy. You could probably harmonize it anyway you want, that's the great thing about popular and folkloric tunes. The page is wide open for you to infuse your personality.

i agree, I get how people might not like the dead, but this tune...its just perfect.

i always thought it should have been the closer on "beauty."