Question on Dixieland / New Orleans

**Silentwiz** · 02-14-2011, 06:15 PM

So I found an outlet to start playing some Dixeland/New Orleans style jazz (Chinatown China Boy Ain't She Sweet Dinah etc)... any ideas on some guitarists that I can check out on Youtube or albums that will help me get acquainted with the guitar's role in this type of music? I checked out Eddie Condon and I can't seem to find any recordings that really showcase what he is doing specifically.

Thanks!

**ejwhite09** · 02-14-2011, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Silentwiz

So I found an outlet to start playing some Dixeland/New Orleans style jazz (Chinatown China Boy Ain't She Sweet Dinah etc)... any ideas on some guitarists that I can check out on Youtube or albums that will help me get acquainted with the guitar's role in this type of music? I checked out Eddie Condon and I can't seem to find any recordings that really showcase what he is doing specifically.

Thanks!

Rythm Baby Rythm. Chunk Chunk Chunk. Danny Baker.

**cosmic gumbo** · 02-14-2011, 10:16 PM

Get a banjo, that's how rhythmic it's supposed to be.

**monk** · 02-14-2011, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by ejwhite09

Rhythm Baby Rhythm. Chunk Chunk Chunk. Danny Barker.

ejwhite09 is right on the money and so is cosmic gumbo.

Eddie Condon is considered to be Chicago jazz rather than Dixieland but the difference can be hard to tell. Condon wasn't much for soloing, he preferred to play rhythm and drive the band. Another guitarist to listen for would be Nappy Lamare with Bob Crosby's Bobcats.

While there were a few early guitarists in New Orleans jazz such as Brock Mumford who played with Buddy Bolden, most of the rhythm was handled by banjoists.

Also Dixieland and much of the Chicago jazz has to two-four or cut time feel rather than the four-four of swing.

Sounds like a fun gig. Good luck.

Regards,
monk

**ksjazzguitar** · 02-15-2011, 12:31 AM

Learn play play chord solos. I had a gig like this once and it was a lotta fun. Condon is good, but listen to some old Dixie banjo to hear the sound you're going for.

Peace,
Kevin

**ejwhite09** · 02-15-2011, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by joe b

Danny Barker.

Check this out. You can't really hear the banjo until they start soloing - probably why they didn't use guitar in the old days - can't play it loud enough to be heard, plus it is there for rhythm more than anything else. They use 4 string tenor banjos, not the 5 string bluegrass ones.

Grooveshark - Listen to Free Music Online - Internet Radio - Free MP3 Streaming

Always get my barks and bakes confused

But yeah I read, that at the time of dixieland, guitar wasn't really doing much in popular music, because of its sonic limits, and you can't really drag an amp in a second line. So they went for the banjo, with its tinny sound could cut through that brass. But out of this deficiency we get the archtop guitar and the electric guitar, so bitter with the sweet.

**MarkRhodes** · 02-15-2011, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by ejwhite09

But yeah I read, that at the time of dixieland, guitar wasn't really doing much in popular music, because of its sonic limits, and you can't really drag an amp in a second line.

I sometimes think the banjo served the rest of the band--plunking a steady rhythm--rather than the audience. It's really hard to hear the banjo on early recordings but you can definitely feel the rhythm!

**Stackabones** · 02-15-2011, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by billkath

I do, all the time. However-I only use three or four note chords, keeping away from the high E and low strings more often than not.

I wonder if using a Nashville tuning would work? It would get rid of the need to avoid the low strings.

**cosmic gumbo** · 02-15-2011, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Stackabones

I wonder if you could get away with a 6-string banjitar?

You mean ganjo? This old Epihone tenor guitar must have been a mean rhythm machine.

**Stackabones** · 02-15-2011, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

You mean ganjo? This old Epihone tenor guitar must have been a mean rhythm machine.

That's really cool. Tiny Grimes, anyone?

**ejwhite09** · 02-15-2011, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by markerhodes

I sometimes think the banjo served the rest of the band--plunking a steady rhythm--rather than the audience. It's really hard to hear the banjo on early recordings but you can definitely feel the rhythm!

Yeah, definitely, its very hard to hear in the mix, plus its probably hard to hear due to recording limits of the day, I think it said its ability to even be faintly heard in recordings was another reason. Plus with brass bands, you don't really have a time keeping instrument. It is wierd I know what you're talking about, you can feel the ryhthm more than you can hear it. With just little pluckings here and there. Apparently reproducing this was a big factor in archtop innovation. Getting that sound to bounce off the top as opposed to going in the sound hole and echoing out. But then look how big those old archtops are compared to a banjo! I would still say its quite unwieldy for a marching band.
I was in NOLA, and I didn't see many bands with guitarists(playing trad new olreans jazz). And when they did, a great band, New Orleans Jazz Vipers, the guitar was just doing the chunk chunk chunk, it made it sound like gypsy jazz to me. Not really Freddy Green because its way to relaxed.

**ejwhite09** · 02-15-2011, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

You mean ganjo? This old Epihone tenor guitar must have been a mean rhythm machine.

Wow, those Gibson guys used to do some crazy things, can't wait for this to show up on antiques roadshow

**billkath** · 02-15-2011, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Stackabones

I wonder if using a Nashville tuning would work? It would get rid of the need to avoid the low strings.

I wouldn't-but there are no rules. See what you think yourself.

**Stackabones** · 02-15-2011, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by ejwhite09

Wow, those Gibson guys used to do some crazy things, can't wait for this to show up on antiques roadshow

I'm thinking that's pre-Gibson, right? Gibby didn't buy them till the late 50s or thereabouts.

**monk** · 02-15-2011, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by ejwhite09

Wow, those Gibson guys used to do some crazy things, can't wait for this to show up on antiques roadshow

Definitely pre-Gibson.

Also worth noting, while many tenor banjoists who switched to tenor guitar kept the tuning CGDA intact, there is also tenor guitar tuning called Chicago tuning which is DGBE same as the top four strings on regular guitar. I think Tiny Grimes may have used Chicago tuning on his electric tenor guitar.

Regards,
monk

**MarkRhodes** · 02-15-2011, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by ejwhite09

I was in NOLA, and I didn't see many bands with guitarists(playing trad new olreans jazz).

I lived there four years and don't recall seeing (hearing) one.

**cosmic gumbo** · 02-15-2011, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by markerhodes

I sometimes think the banjo served the rest of the band--plunking a steady rhythm--rather than the audience. It's really hard to hear the banjo on early recordings but you can definitely feel the rhythm!

Many think that guitar in a big band is just to help keep the groove for the musicians, more than anything.

**joe b** · 02-15-2011, 03:07 PM

Maybe so. The standing joke is that in hard times the guitarist is the first member of the big band to be fired.

It's hard to put your finger on what the guitar brings to a big band that can't be covered elsewhere. Maybe we like the Freddie Green "vanilla in the cake batter" analogy because he managed to stay in a great band for a long time.

**ejwhite09** · 02-15-2011, 03:17 PM

A buddy and me were watching antiques roadshow last night and they had a gibson banjo but we cut out before the whole segment to go to the bar to celebrate singles awareness, i mean valentines day.

**ejwhite09** · 02-15-2011, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by joe b

Maybe so. The standing joke is that in hard times the guitarist is the first member of the big band to be fired.

It's hard to put your finger on what the guitar brings to a big band that can't be covered elsewhere. Maybe we like the Freddie Green "vanilla in the cake batter" analogy because he managed to stay in a great band for a long time.

Agreed, I mean, a guitar is nearly useless in a big band setting. If you have drums, bass, and a ochestra of horns, add a piano, and the guitar has no musical input left. Like Freddy Green, is basically celebrated for his timing. Using the guitar as a purely rythmic device. Who knows why, but perhaps the Depression or something the inability to financially support large bands help guitar come to the forefront, because its very versatile essentially being able to jump from doing rythm to melody even do both. Django Hot Club stuff, using the guitars as the rhtyhm section. Guitar is a great instrument when it has a role. I remember going from blues and rock to jazz, the first time I ever played with a piano a bass and drums, and i was completely lost, with no reference for my role. I was playing full chords!
But nothing drives a band like a big box four to flooring it, I mean you listen to those freddy green recordings and you just want to move.

**ejwhite09** · 02-15-2011, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by markerhodes

I lived there four years and don't recall seeing (hearing) one.

Glad it wasn't just me

Yeah I was stoked to go down and maybe cop some influences, but yeah, no guitarists really, at all. But, I've gotten more into horn players as I've delved into jazz. Im convinced jazz is horn music, and atleast for me, that method of approach has helped my playing emmensly.

**MarkRhodes** · 02-15-2011, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by ejwhite09

Glad it wasn't just me

Yeah I was stoked to go down and maybe cop some influences, but yeah, no guitarists really, at all.

There are some good guitarists, just not in Dixieland (or other brass) bands. Steve Masikowski is a monster. When I was there, he was in at least three different bands gigging regularly, perhaps the best known being Astral Project.

Here's a link to his website. Steve Masakowski I think he has a couple books out, though I haven't read them.

And there's Shane Theriot, whose book on New Orleans funk guitar is really good. Shane Theriot

But it's not a "guitar town" (-as Steve Earle called Nashville.) Ever heard Bonearama? More trombonists than most people can name--all in one band!

**ejwhite09** · 02-15-2011, 05:01 PM

Awesome! Man can't thank you enough for those!

I'm actually debating moving down there, but I recently heard something about six inch cockroaches

**MarkRhodes** · 02-15-2011, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by ejwhite09

I'm actually debating moving down there, but I recently heard something about six inch cockroaches

Don't worry about cockroaches; it's the heat and humidity that kill. It's brutal in the summer. (And I'm from South Florida, where summers are no picnic.) The food is world class and music is everywhere. Lots of people leave there for New York but soon come back saying, as Dorothy did in "The Wizard of Oz," "There's no place like home."

I haven't lived there since Katrina, though. There are rough neighborhoods and because of the decadence, there are a lot of opportunists to avoid, but I'd be back there now if circumstances permitted.

**ejwhite09** · 02-16-2011, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by markerhodes

Don't worry about cockroaches; it's the heat and humidity that kill. It's brutal in the summer. (And I'm from South Florida, where summers are no picnic.) The food is world class and music is everywhere. Lots of people leave there for New York but soon come back saying, as Dorothy did in "The Wizard of Oz," "There's no place like home."

I haven't lived there since Katrina, though. There are rough neighborhoods and because of the decadence, there are a lot of opportunists to avoid, but I'd be back there now if circumstances permitted.

Yeah, I live in Tidewater Virginia, 100% and 100 degree's are no strangers here, either. But we really only have oppressive heat from like July to August. I went down to NOLA in September and it was still getting up in the high 80s. Plus that kind of weather is easy to deal with when you live a few miles from a beachfront, which wouldn't be the case there.

I walked from the Riverwalk/ Trade Center area to Vaughn's, to go see Kermit Ruffins, in Bywater(a google maps walk of 2 miles but I suspect it was more like 3). So I got a nice slice of the city, but definitely didn't know where I was, or you know what kind of neighborhoods I was walking through. But I made it! And the feat quite impressed some local older ladies. One gave me her card, I really wish I'd put more thought into that one....lol obviously she wasn't trying to be pen pals...oh well!

But the people were top notch. Hell a few people even offered to let me crash on their couches!