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I don't play trumpet, however I have been working with a excellent Trumpet/Flugel player for the last 15 years. He is a band director at a local H.S. but has played with the Woody Herman band Glen Miller Tribute band and cruise ships for 8 years before the band director gig. We have a duo, no bass/drums and no backing tracks-just us. I can only give you a couple observations from a guitarists point of view.
1. It is SO great to see how quickly and on the fly the guy can transpose. I'm pretty fast at it but this really helps. I also handle vocals and that skill is very helpful-but you probably know this.
2. Remember as a guitarist/band leader how we are generally at the gig early to set up, check the room e.q., move stuff around for best sound, etc.
No more of that if you are the horn player! Just show up with your charts about 5 minutes before downbeat, play a couple of warm up scales and your good to go! You may be asked to help a little bit with the load out, but take stuff that is really light, like music stands and mics.
Best of luck to you and Happy Holidays!
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12-25-2025 01:33 PM
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Lol, thanks Sierra. It's my #1 reason to stay a non-smoker. I def like the easy tear down! As a vocalist the diaphragm usage is really helpful with trumpet. I'm really enjoying the instrument with a long game of playing decent level of jazz in 3 to 5 years. My ear is already growing. I heard an F in my head the other day and was able to correctly identify it. I blame that on the trumpet. I was watching some rather fast Vincent Herring (sax) solos that were transcribed and was able to follow the sheet music in real time. I've never been able to do that. I've been listening to more jazz than ever. It's just doing me a whole heap of good in general, even with the guitar. I'm becoming a better listener. Merry Christmas and happy new year. I hope we all have great musical and gigging fortunes in the year ahead. Lord bless!
Originally Posted by SierraTango
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If those Bach mpc say Mt Vernon, they're worth money.
Cornet mouthpieces tend to be more v-shaped. A shallow mpc is brighter, but is a trade-off, upper register can be a little easier, at the expense of lower register. They're also trickier when your lip gets puffy. Mouthpiece Express is a good company for selection and technical info.
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Repair tech shops for brass usually have repaired, gone over, set up stuff on hand for resale. There are 3 in the region I live, and another independent who comes highly recommended.
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I've been browsing some other mouthpieces. I did buy a deep V short shank Conn 7 that sounds pretty nice but I been thinking of a slightly shallower cup than a 3c as I can hit a clean A above the staff now when my chops aren't spent. I might grab a Conn EZ tone (they are real cheap) as I was told pre-55 Conn Cornets are meant to be short shank and have a different taper than modern short shank pieces. Mostly just to see how my cornet reacts to it that way I can judge any further mouthpiece choices more correctly. Originally Posted by JGinNJ
Def learning why horn players have so many mouthpieces....it's like string gauges with guitar, you gotta experiment to find what you like the most. I made the mistake of looking too much and finding Marcinkewicz. His concert hall proline stuff looks amazing but upwards of $300 for a gold plated model. I gotta know exactly what I want before I spend that kinda money, lol.
This can kinda be a frustrating instrument at times. One minute I sound great the next my lips sound like someone farting but I keep telling myself "you haven't even played for 2 months yet" so I feel like I'm making decent progress. If my chops lasted longer I'd be making more progress yet but I guess building them to that gig level is part of the process. I mostly been working on long tones, pedal tones, and dom7 arpeggios this week.
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I've been playing trumpet for 60 years. Developing and maintaining a strong embouchure requires patience and consistent practice. Chasing a magic mouthpiece is a fool's errand. You should be able to build and maintain a good embouchure with both range and endurance on any standard medium cup mouthpiece - but it takes a lot of time. Straining to reach high C after only a few months of playing is a recipe for disaster - you'll never develop a strong, solid embouchure and your high notes will continue to drop like flies after only a few minutes of playing.
The typical approach used by most teachers is to start with a 7C, following his or her recommended exercises and practice regimen for at least 30 minutes a day. When you can consistently and cleanly play from middle C to top-of-staff G on the 7C, move to a 5C. When you can cleanly and consistently play from low F# to high C and you're practicing at least 45 minutes a day, most teachers move the student to a 3C. Stick with the 3C until you're pretty far along - there is more harm than good to come from moving to shallow mouthpieces and large bore horns before you're ready.
Do not force the mouthpiece against your lips. You should be able to play from bottom to top of your range with minimal pressure. The Sandole brothers used to have their trumpet students play a trumpet hanging from the ceiling on wires...with their hands behind their backs. Do not puff out your cheeks. You will develop the strength in your masseter muscles to play without looking like Dizzy if you practice within your comfortable range - if the muscles in your cheeks and embouchure fatigue and you lose complete control over them, you will never progress.
If your lips are farting out, you're not making progress - you're pushing too hard and developing very bad habits. If you don't slow down and gain control over your chops, you will never play the way you want to play. It hasn't even been 2 months and you'e trying to play like Miles. That's a recipe for disaster. Back off and respect your fledgling chops - if you screw them up now, you'll be farting out forever.
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I started with a 3c cause that's what I had to use with the Conn trumpet my son loaned me. Then he bought me a Wick 3c. Then I bought a cornet that had a 3c with it. I have a 7c that came with my cornet but I have larger lips and didn't find it very comfortable so 3c is what I've been consistent with using. It feels pretty good but I do think one letter shallower, a D cup, is gonna be more ideal in the long term. Just a guess. My son let me try his kelly screamer which is on par with a Bach 3F. Yup, too shallow. And the 3E isn't much deeper. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Check out this mouthpiece comparison chart, you might find it helpful:
Trumpet Mouthpiece Comparator (BETA)
My lips are farting out later in the day cause I've put in a few sessions by then. I quit whenever the farting out starts and reduced my session times a goodly amount per some other advice I received. More sessions with a shorter duration are superior to fewer sessions of longer duration. Def trying not to overdo it as it was obvious it actually hinders my progress. Trying to play and practice smart, best as I can. Hopefully in the spring I can grab a couple lessons.
For whatever reason I've not had any issues trying to jam the horn into my face so no trouble there. I also didn't want to be a red faced dude straining for high notes. I've found higher notes easier to unlock by practicing slurs (per 2born2bop's advice) and without pushing a lot of air, just finding the correct lip/tongue/breath combo that lets me hit it and then when I'm fresh, and since my embouchure is a little stronger now, I can give them some wind. I can blow an A above the staff when I'm rested but sometimes working downwards I'll choke the pedal E on the staff. Getting better at finding my slots.
PS I'm not trying to play like Miles. I'm trying to play like Nat!
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That's two months today. That A above the staff is pretty much a guarantee now heh heh. My biggest challenge lately has been hitting high E on the staff coming in blind but I did start on the Arban slur section so hopefully that will help clean up some of my technique.
2born2bop was nice enough to send me a Flugelhorn for the price of the shipping and I received it yesterday but had some studio work to do so I was able to give it a good run through today. Took me a few minutes to get used to the mouthpiece and air support required but once I caught on it was quite addictive and the modern horn slots so easily and concisely. Such a beautiful, dark, rich tone. Thanks again 2born, that was a serious treat!
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What a great song.
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Roy was fantastic.
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Keep at it bruh! Originally Posted by DawgBone
My mentor was Freddie Hubbard. In 1971 as a Sophomore in high school he released the Grammy winning album First Light. It even received some radio play in Sacramento, which was rare. Anyway, I got into Yesterday’s Dreams on flugelhorn. Try it, it’s very doable. And I’d recommend doing some transcribing of your favorite tunes. Stay inspired!
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Here’s That Rainy Day is one of my favorite tunes for flugel. It’s beautiful and it’s an easy melody to play. But it takes great chops to bring out the best in it. I don’t know of a better tune for developing and expressing your personal style on a horn.
Playing it is a learning experience each & every time, no matter how accomplished you are. I think Freddie Hubbard’s version is fantastic, and this is one of my favorite albums. IIRC, Benson’s on it too. I haven’t pulled out the vinyl in a long time - tonight may be the right time.
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yep! It was his 18th album. Personnel: Benson, J Henderson, H Hancock, Carter, and Jack DeJohnette on drums. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
It was Freddie who made me fall in love with Flugelhorn. Some 30 years later speaking with him @ Seattle’s Jazz Alley, Freddie stated, “you play the trumpet, but you make love to the flugelhorn.” Nuff said.
I truly enjoyed all of the CTI recordings of the early 70’s. Check out Bad Benson and Body Talk under Benson CTI recordings too.
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I been slogging through long tones, slurs, my major scales, and dom7 arpeggios mostly. I can hit a high C and even higher now when I'm warmed up but not quite consistent enough. Normal range is about to A above the staff. I started back on the Arban book today. I need to start hitting that a little more again. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
I need to get a short shank Conn taper mouthpiece for my cornet. It doesn't seem to respond that great with the mp's I have right now and it's an older horn designed for those proprietary Conn tapers. The one guy who was making them is retiring and selling off what stock he has and he ain't got any of the Conn taper stuff so I might have to hunt one down later. Or maybe have a tech install a different receiver into the horn that works with a standard short shank, I dunno. Money is incredibly tight right now at tax time plus wife had a surgery....
As for transcribing....I've been trying to assemble a group of songs (mostly just sight reading the heads) that way I have some stuff to work with as I get a little more familiar with scales, arps, etc and make a move to soloing once my technique and stamina improves. I'm kinda at a plateau right now and need to push through. Caravan, Sabor a mi, Work Song, Besame Mucho, and Strasbourg-St. Denis. I did start transcribing this head here by ear though (sweet tune):
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You're still worrying too much about things that will come with time and sound practice habits, like how high you can play. What's important is to develop control and consistency. You should be able to sustain a note for 15 to 20 seconds with no pitch wavering at all. When your chops are mature, you should be able to do this for any note from low G to double high C at any volume. You have to be able to hold a note and make it louder and softer with no change in pitch or tone quality. You need to be able to start and stop notes with great precision in timing, tone, and volume. You can't wait to hear it first - you have to know what it will sound like before you play it. That confidence is a large part of the fluidity and richness you hear from great players - there's no hesitancy at all to any note. You have to be able to play with certainty. Originally Posted by DawgBone
There are so many things to master that most of us never even learn about them all. But these are the kinds of things that lead to great tone and rich melodic playing. Playing any brass instrument really well is hard. It's hard to develop the chops and it's hard to maintain them. Unfortunately, it's easy to develop bad habits when taking shortcuts to playing high and loud. You might benefit from at least a few lessons with a really good teacher who can spot bad habits early in your playing and guide you through the learning process.
As for the mouthpiece taper issue, IIRC it was prewar Conn cornets that had weird mouthpieces. They were about ¼" shorter than modern mouthpieces and tapred at 0.060" per inch instead of the now standard 0.050" / inch. Because of the taper difference, modern mouthpieces drop further in than the original ones. If the receiver is still perfectly round, a new mouthpiece will seal in an old Conn cornet. But the area of seal is much shorter, and the mouthpiece will be a tiny bit unsteady unless you really jam it in (which you shouldn't do). If the seal is at all leaky, it will affect your playing. It's like playing a horn with a larger bore, in that there's less resistance. So you have to blow harder to get the same volume, and your tone will be thinner than it would be with a properly fitting mouthpiece.
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I'm not really sure how you are interpreting my posts as me just trying to be loud on high notes way above the staff. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
My range has been built pretty naturally just practicing slurs and doing lessons in the arban book. I guess if I was red faced blowing into a horn jammed tight to my face trying to reach that C above the staff you might have a point. It's just kind of falling into place with time.
I've been practicing long tones, read my post. Actually I play long, low tones each day as the first thing I do when I pick up the horn per some other advice. Descending from C below the staff down to F#. If anything I'm probably not using enough air, hoping to not drive my wife completely nuts since we live in a pretty small home and I don't care for using mutes much. Hoping to get some lessons come spring or summer but right now I have a lot of bills hanging over my head.
As for the Conn taper cornet mouthpieces, per the Conn Loyalist website it was the mid 50's where the change happened and this horn has a serial # indicating 1953 so I'm fairly certain it was designed for a short shank conn taper piece. All I have is long taper pieces save for a UMI Conn 7 that is too deep for my liking in terms of usual playing. I'll pick up some more pieces in due time. It's a great sounding horn though with the electroformed coprion bell. Warm and rich. Addicting!
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Strasburg St. Denis?! It’s on my playlist! Love that tune, and Roy dancing on the stage. I’ve got the sheet music if you need it Originally Posted by DawgBone
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Thanks for the offer bro. I need to have a couple tunes to transcribe so I'm starting with those couple Roy tunes since the melodies aren't horribly technical. Actually that is kind of why I've come to love Roy. He was accessible when he wanted to be. So unfortunate he passed while still in his prime. We'll see how the transcribing goes. Wife has been laid up post-surgery so I been stuck using mutes, which also mutes my joy in hearing that Conn coprion bell sizzle, lol. If I need sheet music later I'll shoot you a message. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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That's three months! I've only missed a single day of playing.
It's hit and miss. Such a temperamental instrument. My morning routine has me sounding like cold crap but seems to warm up the lips for the afternoon, when I sound much better and my slurs come off much more cleanly. Any warm up exercise suggestions would be good. I usually just blow long tones in the lower register and play some major scales....
Almost knocked out memorizing all the major scales and dom 7 arpeggios, just a little more work to do on some of the oddballs in the flat keys and I think I'll jump to my blues scales and minor 7 arpeggios and then month six get back into that Arban book and start some basic soloing attempts. My core skills need more work so I think I'm better off laying the foundation with just a little fun time learning jazz heads and saving some of the book work and solo attempts until I have a tighter, more automatic grasp of those things.
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For more warm-up and soft playing, Herbert Clarke Technical studies, #2 and 3 in particular. I don't know if the book is free online.
Greg Wing's 20 minute warm-up is a good all-around routine.Ryan Hobbs has a similar routine if you can't find Wing's.
The Ernest Williams "Secret of Technique-Preservation" is from the 40's, it's very comprehensive and a real work-out if you do the whole thing.
What you're doing with a warm-up, technical session and coming back to it after a break is a good thing, my own teacher has recommended that to me.
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You can practice too much, too. Muscles need rest to recover from exercise. Pushing your embouchure until it fatigues will not help you develop it. If your tone, pitch control, or any other aspect of your sound turns to cold crap, stop. Focus each practice session on one or two elements of playing - don’t throw everything you want to master into a single session.
Don’t lose sight of the fundamentals. Don’t thrust your chin out, don’t use too much pressure against the mouthpiece, don’t let your cheeks puff out, keep your lip borders within the cup, etc. It’s common to do all these and more when straining to hit highs, for example. If it’s not coming without significant discomfort or fatigue, you’re not ready to do it yet.
It takes at least a year of focused, disciplined practice for most of us to develop decent chops. You need to master intonation across the full dynamic range, articulation, breathing accuracy, lip-breath-hand-tongue-ear coordination, etc etc. Rome wasn’t built in a day.
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Some really good advice, thanks. When I'm cold I'm definitely cold crap until I get that first 20 minute morning warm up session in. Then my afternoon 20-30 minutes is sounding pretty good, strong, and I can make the slurs up to G and A above the staff pretty easily. Then my evening 20-30 minutes kind of moves downhill, at which point I'll call it a day. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
The chin advice is good. I've noticed that I do that sometimes trying to adjust intonation so I'll try to be more cognizant about avoiding it. The mouthpiece pressure hasn't been an issue, neither has cheek puffing or my lips borders getting outside the cup. I've tried to avoid any pain or straining when working in the high range. I figure if it's painful it's not good, so I been doing ok there.
My intonation is probably something I need to start putting more time in on. Too much variation from beneath the staff to above the staff. What's good is my ear has become more cognizant of it than when I first started, which is helping my focus on it more/better. Kind of like a beginner who doesn't realize their guitar is out of tune vs now where I can tell I'm out when doing usual licks and the like....
I didn't realize that the physical aspect of a cornet/trumpet/flugel was so great. "Hey it's only got three keys, how hard can it be?" LOL
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20_minute_routine_revised_june_2013.pdf Originally Posted by JGinNJ
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yes, only 3 keys! Originally Posted by DawgBone
Keep focusing on the basics. Don’t be obsessed with hitting high notes. Those will come in time. Remember what Arturo said about high notes?
I stuck with the pedal tone routine for several years. It eventually paid dividends. Don’t expect too much too soon. Be patient. Meditate. Calm your mind. Be still.
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It takes a long time to develop endurance. I’ve been playing trombone my whole life, but there is no way I could roll out and play any gig in my current state of practice, which is not at all. Every once in a while I get it out to show myself I still have it, and then I put it away again. I hate practicing trombone because I reached the point where I was satisfied with my ability to play the instrument 30 or so years ago. My current endurance is about 30 minutes with no practice regimen.
As for the intonation issues, well it’s a trumpet. It’s not going to be perfectly in tune, and flugel is even worse. If perfect intonation is something you like (I do), I might suggest a brass instrument with a larger mouthpiece and an infinitely variable pitch changing mechanism. I’m over simplifying, but there’s a reason you see those sliders on trumpet valves 1 and 3 and triggers on same on a flugel.
I agree with the other comments about practicing too much. Same goes for any instrument. I believe progress is limited when you are tired.
Hope you stick with it! Brass is fun.
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