Beethoven's Fifth

[palindrome]

Both (1) Proud Mary and (2) Smoke on the Water are said by their composers to have been based on Beethhoven's Fifth.

In both cases, this never would have occurred to me.

[strumcat]

According to John Lennon, the Beatles song "Because" was based on the chords to Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata" played backwards. It's not unusual to hear pop music based on classical music simply because there are no copyright restritions. And Beethoven, Chopin, Tschaikovsky, DeBussy and others wrote some really lovely melodic stuff.

[palindrome]

That makes sense!

[Bob_Ross]

Both (1) Proud Mary and (2) Smoke on the Water are said by their composers to have been based on Beethhoven's Fifth.

In both cases, this never would have occurred to me.

Possibly because their respective composers were wrong.

[joe2758]

Beethoven, Chopin, Tschaikovsky, DeBussy and others wrote some really lovely melodic stuff.

Yeah I think they're generally considered to be pretty good

[Doctor Jeff]

Possibly because their respective composers were wrong.

I bet John Fogarty and Ritchie Blackmore made a lot more money off their songs than Beethoven did off his. And coincidentally, they could thus afford penicillin for their syphilis.

Yeah I think they're generally considered to be pretty good

But could they SWING??

[garybaldy]

Both (1) Proud Mary and (2) Smoke on the Water are said by their composers to have been based on Beethhoven's Fifth.

In both cases, this never would have occurred to me.

The double stop riff on the Beatles She Loves You, just before the 1st verse, are the same double stops as the Smoke On The Water riff.

[Jonah]

Both (1) Proud Mary and (2) Smoke on the Water are said by their composers to have been based on Beethhoven's Fifth.

In both cases, this never would have occurred to me.

First... they always speak about 'da-da-da-daaa'.... not th w hole symphony. Like they say... I love Beethoven's 5th... but in reality they often do not even know the exposition of the 1st movement...

And second... the are not really based: playing something retrospecitvely is more like a random action, hardly it can be called influence or inspiration

And creedence just used the minor 3rd interval (which is extremely general) as a bass move and converted it into the most conventional I - vi

Ok the 2nd case is a kind of influence... because I can clearly hear this motive and character in opening chords of Creedence' song.. but I would not recognize, as it is too general.. how many descending minor 3rds are their in classical music?

[blackcat]

While American rock is mainly inspired by the blues, British rock has always maintained a close relationship with classical music. No wonder, then, that A Whiter Shade of Pale by Procol Harum is largely derived from the music of J.S. Bach. Gary Brooker admitted as much.

[SoftwareGuy]

While American rock is mainly inspired by the blues, British rock has always maintained a close relationship with classical music. No wonder, then, that A Whiter Shade of Pale by Procol Harum is largely derived from the music of J.S. Bach. Gary Brooker admitted as much.

There are so many counter examples.

The Beatles and Stones borrowed from Chuck Berry.

'Walk away Renee' is clearly Baroque.

Jobim's Insensitive was taken from Chopin.

[blackcat]

There are so many counter examples.

The Beatles and Stones borrowed from Chuck Berry.

'Walk away Renee' is clearly Baroque.

Jobim's Insensitive was taken from Chopin.

There are always exceptions to the rule of course.

[SoftwareGuy]

There are always exceptions to the rule of course.

The question is: what is the rule and what is the exception.

Asserting American and British music has some single core influence seems simplistic.

[Christian Miller]

There are always exceptions to the rule of course.

Especially when it isn’t a rule


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Doctor Jeff]

While American rock is mainly inspired by the blues, British rock has always maintained a close relationship with classical music. No wonder, then, that A Whiter Shade of Pale by Procol Harum is largely derived from the music of J.S. Bach. Gary Brooker admitted as much.

British rock was influenced by American rock! Which was of course a pastiche of delta blues (from Africa), Western swing and country shuffle (itself coming from Irish and British and European traditions).

American rock in the ‘60s tended toward either electric blues or folk—think Paul Butterfield and Jefferson Airplane, vs Bob Dylan and the Byrds, though of course there was crossover.

The Brits were more diverse, IMO. The Beatles were more interested in rockabilly and country, recording songs by Buck Owens and Carl Perkins, for instance (whom George Harrison idolized and imitated). The Stones were more of a pure blues influence, at least until Keef met Gram Parsons, who introduced him to the California sound and country rock. Fleetwood Mac with Peter Green—the blues. Cream—the blues.

The late 60s British groups like Pink Floyd, Procul Harum, Genesis and The Zombies expanded the palette with much more of a classical and experimental influence, especially due to their reliance on keyboardists who were trained in the classical genre. (The Beatles, Stones and most American groups were much more guitar focused.) One doesn’t find this so much in the States, though there were exceptions—Frank Zappa, for instance.

The most experimental band in the US in the 60s was the Velvet Underground, and the main force behind their avant-garde presentation even more than Warhol was John Cale, who studied composition at music school in London, before coming over and working with LaMont Young.

Bottom line: I agree with your premise, but it’s complicated. There was a lot of cross-pollination going on.

[Litterick]

The late 60s British groups like Pink Floyd, Procul Harum, Genesis and The Zombies expanded the palette with much more of a classical and experimental influence, especially due to their reliance on keyboardists who were trained in the classical genre.

Members of those bands attended schools where music was taught formally as part of the curriculum, and where pupils were expected to learn an instrument. They were also exposed to Anglican church music. Mike Rutherford of Genesis, recalling chapel at Charterhouse school, spoke of the “drama” of the “hymns' big chords and chord sequences”. [Gilded Youth Privilege, Rebellion and the British Public School; by James Brooke-Smith. London: Reaction Books, 2019]

The Zombies also were Anglican: Colin Blunstone and Hugh Grundy both sang in the choir at St Etheldreda's Church, Hatfield. Rod Argent was a boy chorister in St Albans Cathedral Choir.[/QUOTE]

[strumcat]

The Zombies also were Anglican: Colin Blunstone and Hugh Grundy both sang in the choir at St Etheldreda's Church, Hatfield. Rod Argent was a boy chorister in St Albans Cathedral Choir.

Another famous Brit rocker who sang in an award-winning choir as a boy is none other than Keith Richards. In fact, he spent so much time rehearsing and performing with the choir that he was held back a grade. I guess that's one of the reasons he turned into a rebel who couln't get no satisfaction.

[Doctor Jeff]

Members of those bands attended schools where music was taught formally as part of the curriculum, and where pupils were expected to learn an instrument. They were also exposed to Anglican church music. Mike Rutherford of Genesis, recalling chapel at Charterhouse school, spoke of the “drama” of the “hymns' big chords and chord sequences”. [Gilded Youth Privilege, Rebellion and the British Public School; by James Brooke-Smith. London: Reaction Books, 2019]

The Zombies also were Anglican: Colin Blunstone and Hugh Grundy both sang in the choir at St Etheldreda's Church, Hatfield. Rod Argent was a boy chorister in St Albans Cathedral Choir.

Yes the Brits in those days seemed to take to Art School like moths to flames.

Except Rod Stewart. He left school at age 15 and worked as a silk screen printer, then set his sights on becoming a pro footballer before he wisely chose music.

American rock musicians come from all walks. A lot of them studied visual arts, not music, at Art School, such as Michael Stipe and the members of Talking Heads. I would say that art (and music) have never been as valued academically in the US as in Europe and Britain.

[2bornot2bop]

Growing up, I enjoyed hearing Fogerty’s Proud Mary. But it took Tina Turner to put some heat into it. And of course Ike Turner putting an orchestration behind it.

[garybaldy]

Growing up, I enjoyed hearing Fogerty’s Proud Mary. But it took Tina Turner to put some heat into it. And of course Ike Turner putting an orchestration behind it.

Performed this yesterday. I do Ike's vocal.

[Litterick]

Yes the Brits in those days seemed to take to Art School like moths to flames.

Except Rod Stewart. He left school at age 15 and worked as a silk screen printer, then set his sights on becoming a pro footballer before he wisely chose music.

American rock musicians come from all walks. A lot of them studied visual arts, not music, at Art School, such as Michael Stipe and the members of Talking Heads. I would say that art (and music) have never been as valued academically in the US as in Europe and Britain.

I was describing secondary schools with strong musical cultures. The art schools are another matter. They taught visual arts, not music, at tertiary level. Their appeal to artistic teenagers was evident. The schools were local and the fees were low; grants were available from the local authorities. The atmosphere was informal. The teachers were often leading artists.

Making music was a bonus. Forming bands and playing gigs at the school was an established tradition from jazz days.

[Bob_Ross]

Jobim's Insensitive was taken from Chopin.

I can't believe I never made that connection!
:::smacks head on desktop:::

[Christian Miller]

It's not a direct lift TBF