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How different is Travis / Chet Atkins style guitar picking compared to 'Ragtime' picking style? Thumb?
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03-01-2025 11:59 AM
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There are many similarities and many subtle differences, and that's assuming one can even define "ragtime" picking.
I find Travis picking - as in the original Merle Travis / Kentucky thumb-picking styles a lot more "dirty" than Chet. The originals tend to hit that first bass note and then for the beat two (and four, if we're in 4/4) there's a sort of stroke with the thumb that hits more than one note - it tends to hit several strings, and is very percussive. Whereas Chet is much cleaner and more precise. I like the earlier style, myself, but there's no denying Chet was a lot more nimble.
There's a world of other pickers in between those two - the main one that springs to mind is Jerry Reed and all his disciples - and more recently Tommy Emmanuel and Richard Smith and their contemporaries. Folks like Thom Bresh and Marcel Dadi should also be included, as should Buster Jones and his one-time protégé (now master in his own right) Brooks Robertson. All of these, though, are in that Travis / Chet world you mentioned. And all of them are wonderful!
How does this differ from ragtime?
Well, if we're talking actual ragtime (as opposed to ragtime blues) then it's a much smaller pool of players. I'm thinking Ton Van Bergeyk (at least his 1970s stuff), maybe John James, and David Laibman. There are probably many more but these are the ones I'm familiar with. The arrangements tend to be more intricate with a lot of counterpoint and thus there's much less of driving rhythm and much more precision. I'm sure Chet could do all of this equally as well as those I've mentioned. In fact, probably all of them could have.
All that said, when folks talk about ragtime guitar they tend to often mean ragtime blues - Blind Blake springs to mind, as does Rev Gary Davis, and many of the finger-picking blues guys who weren't out and out delta blues players. This is a wonderful style of music, but tends to be drifting back to the driving rhythms that we mentioned above.
It's a wonderful genre / set of genres and is my favourite way to play a guitar. There are also players who play in this genre but who play jazz tunes - listen to Duck Baker and Pat Donahue. I'm rather hoping my jazz studies will help me touch on this in my own playing a tiny bit.
Be great to have a thread on this. I added a version of Indiana to my "Tiny Steps" thread only last month.
Derek
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+1 for digger's post! I play all three styles, and what he said is spot on. Started playing 'Chet' in the 60s, then discovered Merle who I really like better in some ways; Chet got a little too 'slick' for me but I still like him. My ragtime experience started in 1969 with a guy in the army teaching me part of Dave Van Ronk's "St Louis Tickle" on my newly purchased Martin D-18 ($325 - my whole month's pay). After I got out, I found the album and learned the rest. Listened to a lot of Duck Baker, Elizabeth Cotton, Doc Watson, Blind Blake. Ton Von Bergeyk (sp) and John James are both monsters. There are also some really good Japanese ragtime players if you look on YT. Tommy Emmanuel is a great player but I don't care for the 'show off' stuff - my favorite guys right now are John Knowles and Richard Smith; Richard Smith is beyond belief as are Guy Van Duser and Muriel Anderson. I guess the original Kentucky thumb style has progressed but it's still all good and great fun to play. For tunes, start with "Freight Train", then "Windy and Warm", then "Anji" and "Maple Leaf Rag" are both doable. Once you get the style down, you can branch out. Great thread - we need to keep it going.
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Many thanks Derek & Skip Ellis for your great info to my question--much appreciated. New to the style. Been on the jazz'y side of life-pick style--for many years. Just started on the Merle Travis / Chet Atkins / Ragtime style. A new musical direction for me. Left hand (fingerboard) no problem--the right hand finger style 'something else'!
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What luck to find you guys talking about Travis picking and ragtime. I barely qualify as an amateur guitarist unlike most users of this site, but I picked up a little Travis picking from a book by Happy Traum back in the 1960s, and I really enjoy what little I can do. I only learned to use thumb, index, and middle finger, regretfully. Is there a book or other resource that might help me to start using my ring finger, too? This old dog wants to learn a new trick.
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Ragtime is my favorite fingerpicking acoustic guitar style, the Joplin, Joseph Lamb stuff. Actually, I prefer listenign to good ragtime guitar players more so than the piano players. The reason is that most of the piano players I have heard seem to want to get through the tunes as fast as possible, while the guitar players tend to take the time to play it as Joplin said in his "School of Ragtime" - a relaxed pace.
Tony
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Hey Strumcat.
Originally Posted by strumcat
I'm not sure there is such a resource. Maybe Mark Hanson's Travis Picking book? But really, if you're good using two fingers then you probably best off just mentally and physically applying the first finger to the third string, index finger to the second, and ring finger to the first string rule and forcing yourself to use it. It won't take long. I use the ring finger occasionally, but generally just do what you already do. I think Merle Travis only used the one... As the music gets more complex then maybe that ring finger is a help, though.
And don't worry about barely qualifying as an amateur player "unlike most users on this site", I think there's a fair number of people here who are at that level (myself included).
Derek
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OK, Derek, thank you for your kindness and hospitality. I suspected that the rule you mentioned was the way to go about it, but now that I know for certain, I'll try to apply it. I watched a video on this site of a guy playing ragtime, and he not only had the bass and melody going, but some nice rhythmic t chordal stuff, too. I have to bring my thumb up to do that, or cheat and strum a few strings. And I'll see if I can find the book you mentioned. Best regards!
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If that video was on this site was it a member here? Or was a linked video? If the former, I'm sure they'd be delighted to help with some advice.
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Hi Folks,
You've started an interesting discussion, since there's far less written about the guitar right hand, in general, and very little about using five fingers. Strumcat asked "Is there a book..?"
I've seen a book by Charles Postlewate, published in 2009, which might fit the bill: Contemporary Anthology of Solo Guitar Music for Five Fingers of the Right Hand. It's standard notation only (i.e. no tab) and I'd call the level of the pieces medium to difficult.
I see Mel Bay's webpage also mentions a few other associated books, that I've not read: there's an Anthology of Nineteenth Century Studies for Five Fingers ... by Leonhard Beck, and also a Villa Lobos collection (Villa-Lobos was an early pioneer of the full use of the right hand).
There are samples from each book here on the Mel Bay web pages:
All the best
Mick WLast edited by Mick Wright; 04-05-2025 at 10:48 AM.
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See also this earlier thread of mine: So what kind of blues is this (or not?)
Was he? My current teacher more or less grew up in a household where he got to meet Brazilian classical players like Tuberio Santos who had known Villa-Lobos personally. I'm guessing he would remember if consistent use of the little finger had ever come up, and at least refer to that when I mentioned I use 5 fingers for certain chords in the V-L piece we're working on. Originally Posted by Mick Wright
FWIW, Villa-Lobos did not consider his works to be popular music.
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Hi RJVB Originally Posted by RJVB
Apologies, I was being lazy by not offering any citation referring to Villa-Lobos' right hand approach. I forget where I first heard of this. It's a long time ago, and I suspect it may have come from Colin Cooper, writing in the UK Classical Guitar or Guitarist magazines back in the 1980s or '90s. I've just spotted a later article by Cooper, for Classical Guitar, which makes a similar assertion and refers to Segovia's disapproval of V-L's technique, quoting Turibio Santos. He also includes some surprising older examples of players using all five digits:
https://classicalguitarmagazine.com/...and-technique/
I first encountered this technique watching the great Gypsy Dave Smith. After trying it out for a while, I found that it gradually made my left and right hands feel more balanced and synchronised (I won't use the word 'symmetrical' in relation to the guitar!). Nail shape is vital, and you can clearly see Dave's well-shaped right hand nails on this film:
All the best, Mick WLast edited by Mick Wright; 04-05-2025 at 12:54 PM.
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Hi Skip Ellis,
That's sound advice!
And it was good to see the wonderful Ton van Bergeijk mentioned.
In case you've missed it, his most recent album, called Pickin' Again! is previewed here:
All the best, Mick WLast edited by Mick Wright; 04-05-2025 at 03:09 PM.
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Yes, if V-L was self-taught it would make sense that he would have taught himself to use all fingers. We do it with the non-dominant (fretting) hand after all. Originally Posted by Mick Wright
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Richard Smith has a YT video called something like 'thumbstyle workout' where he shows you how to get your thumb to have a mind of it's own which is an absolute necessity for this style. Starts very simply and progresses from there.
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The video was by a guy going by "DelOfTheShire" on YouTube. Some nice playing of the type I enjoy. His guitar sounds really good, too. Originally Posted by digger
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Doc Watson and his son Merle (guess where the name came from?) were masters of Travis style:
And modern player Billy Strings can Travis pick with the best of them.
There was a good guitarist and singer out of Minnesota Cam Waters, who actually played at a party at our house once. He was one of the best "modern" pickers of old blues out there. Unfortunately he died too young, of suicide I have read.
More trivia...I worked once with a nurse who was Pat Donohue's neighbor. Could you imagine having to live next to him and hear him play so much better than you EVERY DAY?
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That's me, Strumcat! And thanks for the compliments:-) Originally Posted by strumcat
Cheers
DerekLast edited by digger; 04-24-2025 at 05:32 PM.
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Did a gig playing this style this evening. Well, a support gig. Was nice. It's a great style because you get to solo over a bass line but you're doing it all yourself. Heaps of fun. Good reactions, too, and looks like some more gigs will be forthcoming. Plus I can carry amp (AER 60), bag, and acoustic guitar in one trip from the car. Happy days.
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