How do you understand the 5th and 6th bars of rhythm changes?

[ragman1]

It was, I was quite surprised. But a lot of them, maybe the majority, prefered Eb - Eo.

[Christian Miller]

How about

Bb | Cm | Dm | Cm
Dm | Eb | Dm | Cm

You can do 7-6 on each chord

Bbmaj7 Bb6 | Cm7 Cm6 | Dm7 Dm6* | Cm7 Cm6

* not a diatonic chord, but it gives you the G7 sound

Or you could use the BH maj-6 dim

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[wolflen]

How about

Bb | Cm | Dm | Cm
Dm | Eb | Dm | Cm

You can do 7-6 on each chord

Bbmaj7 Bb6 | Cm7 Cm6 | Dm7 Dm6* | Cm7 Cm6

* not a diatonic chord, but it gives you the G7 sound

Yes its the music of that time in pop/jazz-- Its the Micky Baker Book One progression in every key... these progressions were almost expected to be played..they didnt know Miles was thinking about Kind of Blue as a way to break out of that mind set.

Coltrane took the tempo of the RC and moved the tonal centers around a bit..which removed any comfort zones in the progression--NO Sleeping Here !

[Christian Miller]

There’s an argument to say that Miles was returning to the approach of Lester Young which often ignored the details of changes and forgrounded the melodic line. Lesters influence on Miles is sometimes overlooked. Actually Miles is overlooked! How many people transcribe his solos compared to Bird or Hank Mobley?


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[Christian Miller]

So, here’s what I make out as the changes to Lester Leaps In, for example. In fact the head is played over a sustained Bb chord.



So, standard swing rhythm section riff of the era (Christopher Columbus or Second Balcony Jump)

Reference recording

Lester's Lines are based very much around the key centre, with a ton of blues. While he plays some Ebs, it's notable how this doesn't really align with the changes. I think he was thinking Bb major/blues and blowing.


The changes playing kicks in on the B section


It’s striking to me that he hangs out on the 9ths and 13th in the reprise A - something Miles also does on so what. The influence is strong

This is what Bird studied before becoming Bird. I wonder if it's not a bad idea to start here with RC?

See also Charlie Christian....

It also seems to be that later soloists on RC - be they Dexter Gordon or Adam Rogers - like to have a little tip of the hat to Lester in their solos. It’s like touching base before bringing their own ideas into the mix.

So - rhythm changes A section in the swing era was kind of a one chord vamp? Much like things like So What. It’s odd to me that people don’t teach it like this

[Christian Miller]

There’s so many nice variants of RC. Here’s some swing era ones

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[Christian Miller]

There’s also things like Miles ‘the serpents tooth’ which is not unlike progressions in tunes like Mean To Me, Bewitched, Ain’t Misbehaving (that we don’t think of as RC tunes, but kind of are). I notice in a lot of cases where the progression is not the standard RC they will often revert to a more ‘jam friendly’ version of the changes which is what they do on The Serpent’s Tooth. Straighten up and Fly Right is also good example.

But all this jazz talk obscures the fact that this was a pop song form of the 30s and 40s. Tons of novelty hits, some of which have become kids songs:

So think of the Wiggles next time you jam out on Oleo. Don’t teach you that at jazz school….

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[ragman1]

To get back to the original question:

Since there are several variants for the two bars, i just want to know how you think of them and what's your usual approach to them.
Many thanks!

So:

Since there are several variants for the two bars

There are several variants for the WHOLE THING, not just those two bars.

i just want to know how you think of them and what's your usual approach to them.

You just play them. Why assume there's some special formula or trick to it? If you can play through the entire form there's no reason why two bars in the middle somewhere would cause you any problem. Just use your common sense.

As for Christian's micro-analysis of one particular solo by Lester Young back in the ice age, what is the point of that? Why this crawling dependence on what others did? He's playing Eb-Eo anyway and the OP said his version uses Eb-Ebm.

Page 4 now. Repeat, repeat, repeat, mountain out of a molehill. This place can be very frustrating sometimes. The only real problem with RC is when it's played at breakneck speed.

So don't play it at breakneck speed!

[pamosmusic]

There’s an argument to say that Miles was returning to the approach of Lester Young which often ignored the details of changes and forgrounded the melodic line. Lesters influence on Miles is sometimes overlooked. Actually Miles is overlooked! How many people transcribe his solos compared to Bird or Hank Mobley?


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I transcribed a bunch of his solos on Bird recordings.

Probably because I was too lazy to transcribe Bird’s.

[pamosmusic]

So, here’s what I make out as the changes to Lester Leaps In, for example. In fact the head is played over a sustained Bb chord.

BUT WAIT

how can you replace that Cm7 and F7 with an Eb and Eo??

Its like the only point of these chords is to get you back to Bb!!

[ragman1]

I was going to say some time ago that, if you know what you're doing, technically every verse is just Bb maj, with little embellishments obviously.

[pamosmusic]

I was going to say some time ago that, if you know what you're doing, technically every verse is just Bb maj, with little embellishments obviously.

Oh interesting, because what you actually said was that you couldn’t possibly help until you knew precisely what version the OP was looking at.

When Ragman changes his mind, he really changes his mind.

[Christian Miller]

BUT WAIT

how can you replace that Cm7 and F7 with an Eb and Eo??

Its like the only point of these chords is to get you back to Bb!!

Unpossible!!!!

Eo7 on F7 is like my make everyone go “ooo that’s a bit hip innit” power move. It’s that or A7.


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[Christian Miller]

Ragman isn’t really interested in jazz


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[pamosmusic]

l It’s that or A7.

The Someday My Prince Will Come chord. Love it.

[garybaldy]

Unpossible!!!!

Eo7 on F7 is like my make everyone go “ooo that’s a bit hip innit” power move. It’s that or A7.


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The 1st time I came across the Eb A7 movement was in Dark Town Strutter's Ball back in the early 70s. Thought it was cool then - and still do.

[bebopblues]

Thanks everyone for sharing their insights on this seminal form. Super helpful.

FWIW, two books I have found useful are "The Rhythm Changes Guide," by Lukas Gabric, and Herb Ellis' "Rhythm Shapes."

Endless fun -- beats stamp collecting any day!

[rpjazzguitar]

I was curious about the original changes. I couldn't find the 1930 sheet music, but I found what seems to be an early version.

I got -- Bb and Bb6

my man - Cm7 F7

who could -- Ebm6 (with no bass note in the piano score for that beat)
The piano chord has no C in it, but there is a C in the melody on the last eighth note of that bar.

Later choruses show the chord symbol as a Cm7b5, but the piano score is the same. The only date on the sheet music is 1930, but the use of m7b5 might suggest it's newer, I suppose.

http://katycat.net/melannen/music/i%20got%20rhythm.pdf

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I was curious about the original changes. I couldn't find the 1930 sheet music, but I found what seems to be an early version.

I got -- Bb and Bb6

my man - Cm7 F7

who could -- Ebm6 (with no bass note in the piano score for that beat)
The piano chord has no C in it, but there is a C in the melody on the last eighth note of that bar.

Later choruses show the chord symbol as a Cm7b5, but the piano score is the same. The only date on the sheet music is 1930, but the use of m7b5 might suggest it's newer, I suppose.

http://katycat.net/melannen/music/i%20got%20rhythm.pdf

This looks like a recycled hand-engraved original vocal/piano score. The chord symbols / guitar grips were possibly added later. Most important for analysis is what is written in the piano arrangement which always doubles the vocal melody in the right hand.

I found something interesting in the Internet Archive that says "arranged by the composer" at the TOC.

meet george gershwin at the keyboard : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

[Christian Miller]

This link has a set of original changes for I Got Rhythm. They look different from the set of changes Dick Hyman cites. I’ll have to look it up when I get a chance. I remember a chromatic climb up and an Eb- in bar 6

https://www.cs.hmc.edu/~keller/jazz/...GotRhythm.html

These things are extracted from the piano part in the original sheet music. No one takes the ukulele chords seriously.


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[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

[...] No one takes the ukulele chords seriously. [...]

That.

I have some scans of real "original vocal / piano sheet music" somewhere (like they where sold originally, one song on a few pages with a color front page sold for a few cents and not a recycled version from a later published songbook) and they started only in the mid thirties to add uke or guitar grips to the scores. I have e.g. All Of Me (1931) without any chord symbols and grips. I had to figure out the original Dm7/b5 (Ab in the melody not A!) in bar 29 from the piano part.

BTW I wasn't aware that Bob Keller's (RIP) "BIAB for the poor" software Impro-Visor follows the bad habit of printing only one clef in the first line of the lead sheet.

[Christian Miller]

The Ab in All of Me is nice


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[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

The Ab in All of Me is nice


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There are two occurrences of it because in the original the tune also goes home from IV via IVm and not #IVo (bar 25 on, "You took the place where my heart used to be" -- or "You took the best so why not take the rest" like some folks sing).

[Christian Miller]

But I would still solo on the #ivo7 there bwahahahaha. (The melody as written in the RB is agnostic.)


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