Playing the changes vs. playing over the key center

[Mick-7]

That's really the way it was done back in the 70's for jazz, though.

Funny, I recall fusion was popular back then, for example, I saw the Mahavishnu Orchestra at Winterland and the place was packed. And I recall the effect that Bright Size Life had on guitar players when it came out. The West Coast FM rock stations back then played a lot of jazz fusion but apparently it didn't help Pat much.

"Metheny has described the album (Bright Size Life) as being "moderately successful" when it was released, selling around 900 copies, but that it wasn't until 10–15 years later that it received wider recognition."

[AdroitMage]

Often enough, yes.

Well next time that bee comes around, maybe see if you can get some honey, it's sweet and delicious. LOL.

Bees are actually really amazing. Honey and honeycomb never spoil, ever, as long as it's stored properly. It doesn't require refrigeration, and it will be good whenever you get around to eating it.

Also, engineers have studied this, and the hexagon (the shape bees make their honeycombs) is altogether THE most efficient, requiring the least amount of beeswax, the strongest, and the most flexible shape that could possibly be used to construct their honeycombs. How did bees, without an understanding of math, calculators, computers, or even an abacus figure that out?

See? The JWST primary mirror, constructed of 18 hexagonal segments. It's no coincidence the NASA engineers chose that shape. Man copying bees?


Honeycomb

[Christian Miller]

That's really the way it was done back in the 70's for jazz, though. You had to get out there and get your music heard by audiences in order to build a following. Back then there was no Internet, no YouTube where you could just sit back and upload videos and recordings, no satellite radio with a bunch of niche jazz only radio stations, and terrestrial radio was dominated by pop music because the business are greedy and there is more money in that.

He may have been able to submit his demo to some jazz label, though, and have them put him on tours. If they really believed in him, they may have helped him out with some cash to make it all happen, too.

No, he definitely doesn't have to do that anymore, LOL.

Well, my experience is that the internet has relatively little to do with the real world bricks and mortar jazz world. If you want to play live gigs, you have to build up your reputation in that space. (Neely was moaning about that recently, IIRC.) It may help a bit if you have a social media following, but clubs tend to book who they already know (and who can blame them, it's a risk booking new artists) so you have to build up your reputation with them.

[rlrhett]

Yeah, I was going to comment the same thing. My niece is a gigging musician, among others I know in her generation. Social media might help her get a few extra faces in the crowd, but nobody just “sits back” and uploads videos to the Internet.


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[AdroitMage]

Yeah, I was going to comment the same thing. My niece is a gigging musician, among others I know in her generation. Social media might help her get a few extra faces in the crowd, but nobody just “sits back” and uploads videos to the Internet.


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Nobody gets discovered on the internet, Really??? Is that what you really think? That statement is false, and that's putting it mildly. Just do a quick Google search of famous artists discovered on YouTube and you will come up with a list of quite famous artists, including the likes of Justin Bieber, Lana Del Rey, Katy Perry, Halsey, Arianna Grande, Billie Eilish, and also the current lead singer of Journey, (ever heard of them?) who was famously discovered on the internet from just "sitting back" and posting videos on YouTube singing songs, including Journey songs. That list (which is not all the artists discovered on the internet) also includes some multiple Grammy Award-winning artists. Now whether all those artists are really, really, really, really talented could be up for debate, BUT it does prove that to say NOBODY "just sits back" and uploads videos to the internet and gets discovered that way is patently false.

In fact, the quite famous, multiple Grammy Award winning music producer Pharrell said in an interview that "today, it is easier for really, really talented artists to get discovered than ever, because of the internet." He said, if you are "really, really, really, really, talented, and you post your artistry on the Internet, they (the music industry) will find you." So he said, "now, because of the internet, it is better than it has ever been for really, really, really, really talented artists to get discovered."

He did qualify that statement by saying, "if you are really, really, really, really talented" so that obviously does not apply to every yahoo out there who thinks they are an artist. But it does prove my point that you can "just sit back" and post videos to YouTube to get discovered, and some quite famous and very successful multiple Grammy Award artists have been discovered right off of the internet. The internet is a thing, man.

Also, I would be willing to bet that if jazz artists like George Benson, Pat Metheny, Pat Martino, or Joe Pass were just starting out today as artists and posted videos of them performing on YouTube, they would very easily get picked up by a label just from doing that. Would you disagree with that? And of course, they are all really, really, really, really talented, like Pharrell said.

[pamosmusic]

Nobody gets discovered on the internet, Really??? Is that what you really think? That statement is false, and that's putting it mildly.

Since that’s not what he said at all, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that it isn’t what he really thinks.

He said nobody “sits back and posts to the internet.” And that is very much true.

To be discovered on the internet, you have to be *visible* on the internet, and to be visible to someone who isn’t immediately connected to you, you need to have a lot of views and followers already. And that’s a full time job.

Take someone like Adam Neely or Matteo Mancuso to cite a couple recent examples. Creating good content, understanding algorithmic changes on different channels, engaging with comments, developing income streams — that stuff is a literal full time job. It’s not work I particularly value, if I’m being honest but I respect the effort of people who do it.

anyway … The sitting back and uploading is sort of the break in the middle of what is a pretty full work day

[AdroitMage]

Since that’s not what he said at all, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that it isn’t what he really thinks.

He said nobody “sits back and posts to the internet.” And that is very much true.

To be discovered on the internet, you have to be *visible* on the internet, and to be visible to someone who isn’t immediately connected to you, you need to have a lot of views and followers already. And that’s a full time job.

Take someone like Adam Neely or Matteo Mancuso to cite a couple recent examples. Creating good content, understanding algorithmic changes on different channels, engaging with comments, developing income streams — that stuff is a literal full time job. It’s not work I particularly value, if I’m being honest but I respect the effort of people who do it.

anyway … The sitting back and uploading is sort of the break in the middle of what is a pretty full work day

LOL

I'm just going to leave it at that, LOL.

Matteo Mancuso, LOL.

[djg]

Well, my experience is that the internet has relatively little to do with the real world bricks and mortar jazz world. If you want to play live gigs, you have to build up your reputation in that space. (Neely was moaning about that recently, IIRC.) It may help a bit if you have a social media following, but clubs tend to book who they already know (and who can blame them, it's a risk booking new artists) so you have to build up your reputation with them.

mono neon, louis cole, domi, that rhythm guitarist with bonamassa, the italian kid who recently played with meola (Manusco?), they all got real world gigs bcause of their youtube/insta presence.

[AdroitMage]

mono neon, louis cole, domi, that rhythm guitarist with bonamassa, the italian kid who recently played with meola (Manusco?), they all got real world gigs bcause of their youtube/insta presence.

Thank you.

And when I said "just sit back" and post videos, I was juxtaposing sitting in a comfy chair somewhere, or on your comfy couch, while wearing your comfy house shoes, and wearing your comfy bathrobe, while sipping on your favorite Starbucks drink, or sipping on a cocktail, and posting videos of yourself on the internet vs having to load all of your gear in a van, and lug it all in and out of small venues, and play gigs, and call all over the place to book the gigs yourself, and drive all over the place to different cities hundreds or thousands of miles apart, yourself, like Metheny, and lots of other artists, had to do back in the day to get discovered.

[Christian Miller]

mono neon, louis cole, domi, that rhythm guitarist with bonamassa, the italian kid who recently played with meola (Manusco?), they all got real world gigs bcause of their youtube/insta presence.

I’m not sure we can use any of those musicians as a general case


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[pamosmusic]

mono neon, louis cole, domi, that rhythm guitarist with bonamassa, the italian kid who recently played with meola (Manusco?), they all got real world gigs bcause of their youtube/insta presence.

So something to distinguish here.

Having 10,000 followers on Instagram will not help you get a gig at a club.

Having 100,000 followers might help you get a record deal.

So the order of magnitude matters. And getting 100,000 followers is a full time job.

(worth mentioning too that this is very different than a theater or dance gig these days where you give them your social media handles with your headshots)

[Christian Miller]

Thank you.

And when I said "just sit back" and post videos, I was juxtaposing sitting in a comfy chair somewhere or on your comfy couch, while wearing your comfy house shoes, and wearing your comfy bathrobe, while sipping on your favorite Starbucks drink, or sipping on a cocktail, and posting videos of yourself on the internet vs having to load all of your gear in a van, and lug it all in and out of small venues, and play gigs, and call all over the place to book the gigs yourself, and drive all over the place to different cities hundreds or thousands of miles apart, yourself, like Metheny, and lots of other artists, had to do back in the day to get discovered.

Maybe you’re right!

For me, playing gigs is an end in itself. The schelp is part of it and always will be. And I think to play live you kind of need to play live and build connections in the real world too.

Otoh it’s not necessary to build a career by playing live. Look at that bloke Tom Quayle. Doesn’t play gigs apparently, doesn’t like it.


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[AdroitMage]

So something to distinguish here.

Having 10,000 followers on Instagram will not help you get a gig at a club.

Having 100,000 followers might help you get a record deal.

So the order of magnitude matters. And getting 100,000 followers is a full time job.

(worth mentioning too that this is very different than a theater or dance gig these days where you give them your social media handles with your headshots)

Wow, you really like to argue, don't you?

Again, you're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone, but I have heard of quite a number of people who have posted just ONE VIDEO on the Internet that somehow captures people's imaginations, and it gets millions of views and makes them and makes them a lot of money.

You can continue to argue about this if you want to, but I've said what I had to say about this topic.

[pamosmusic]

Wow, you really like to argue, don't you?

Again, you're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone, but I have heard of quite a number of people who have posted just ONE VIDEO on the Internet that somehow captures people's imaginations, and it gets millions of views and makes them and makes them a lot of money.

You can continue to argue about this if you want to, but I've said what I had to say about this topic.

You seem to be the one most engaged in this particular argument.

But yes. Yes I do like to argue.

[djg]

I’m not sure we can use any of those musicians as a general case


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it's jazz music. what general case? the apprenticeship system has collapsed many moons ago, there are hardly any gigs left, the ones that are still there pay the same as 30 years ago. check out the program at the northsea jazz fest. it looks like a youtube playlist. you think laufey got the gig because she paid her dues on the chittlin circuit?

[Mick-7]

Wow, you really like to argue, don't you?

Um, isn't that why forums were invented?

[henryrobinett]

Nobody gets discovered on the internet, Really??? Is that what you really think? That statement is false, and that's putting it mildly. Just do a quick Google search of famous artists discovered on YouTube and you will come up with a list of quite famous artists, including the likes of Justin Bieber, Lana Del Rey, Katy Perry, Halsey, Arianna Grande, Billie Eilish, and also the current lead singer of Journey, (ever heard of them?) who was famously discovered on the internet from just "sitting back" and posting videos on YouTube singing songs, including Journey songs. That list (which is not all the artists discovered on the internet) also includes some multiple Grammy Award-winning artists. Now whether all those artists are really, really, really, really talented could be up for debate, BUT it does prove that to say NOBODY "just sits back" and uploads videos to the internet and gets discovered that way is patently false.

In fact, the quite famous, multiple Grammy Award winning music producer Pharrell said in an interview that "today, it is easier for really, really talented artists to get discovered than ever, because of the internet." He said, if you are "really, really, really, really, talented, and you post your artistry on the Internet, they (the music industry) will find you." So he said, "now, because of the internet, it is better than it has ever been for really, really, really, really talented artists to get discovered."

He did qualify that statement by saying, "if you are really, really, really, really talented" so that obviously does not apply to every yahoo out there who thinks they are an artist. But it does prove my point that you can "just sit back" and post videos to YouTube to get discovered, and some quite famous and very successful multiple Grammy Award artists have been discovered right off of the internet. The internet is a thing, man.

Also, I would be willing to bet that if jazz artists like George Benson, Pat Metheny, Pat Martino, or Joe Pass were just starting out today as artists and posted videos of them performing on YouTube, they would very easily get picked up by a label just from doing that. Would you disagree with that? And of course, they are all really, really, really, really talented, like Pharrell said.

Sorry to quote the whole thing and sorry for jumping into a thread I’m not a part of but no - all the artists you used as examples have record deals and marketing teams, read a lot of money, to promote. Not quite like people just threw some videos on YouTube and people came running. Nope. I’m not saying it’s not possible for people to be discovered on online alone but that’s an o er simplification. Beiber? Really? Katy Perry? Really? Wow. Come on.


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[Christian Miller]

it's jazz music. what general case? the apprenticeship system has collapsed many moons ago, there are hardly any gigs left, the ones that are still there pay the same as 30 years ago. check out the program at the northsea jazz fest. it looks like a youtube playlist. you think laufey got the gig because she paid her dues on the chittlin circuit?

Dunno, perhaps you’re right. What I know is the gigging musicians where I am - some absolute beasts - are nowhere on YouTube much. Hardly any views. As I understand it YT is irrelevant to bookers.

Some of them have a decent but not huge Instagram followings, which I think may have more impact, but this is mostly because venues will expect them to do ALL the promotion, and getting people through the door. So you have to be able to hustle the gig and build up the social networking too. It’s both.

If you book/get booked at one of the known London jazz venues like the Pizza Express or the Vortex this is how it works by and large. If you fill the place, they like you.

(Ronnie’s is different because it’s a tourist attraction so there’s usually a good audience. You get on their radar. I’ve played at Ronnie’s because I know a guy, or I know a guy who knows a guy. Etc…. )

(I believe TikTok has been the focus for a while, not on there.)

But the ground is constantly shifting.

(And someone’s presumably still fixing the bands for the Laufeys of this world.)

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[Christian Miller]

Wow, you really like to argue, don't you?

Again, you're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone, but I have heard of quite a number of people who have posted just ONE VIDEO on the Internet that somehow captures people's imaginations, and it gets millions of views and makes them and makes them a lot of money.

You can continue to argue about this if you want to, but I've said what I had to say about this topic.

I say, good luck to you. you can certainly monetise internet music content. I’ve done so on a modest level myself.


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[Christian Miller]

Sorry to quote the whole thing and sorry for jumping into a thread I’m not a part of but no - all the artists you used as examples have record deals and marketing teams, read a lot of money, to promote. Not quite like people just threw some videos on YouTube and people came running. Nope. I’m not saying it’s not possible for people to be discovered on online alone but that’s an o er simplification. Beiber? Really? Katy Perry? Really? Wow. Come on.


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Yeah… too true

Tbh doing socials WELL is a whole artform in itself. It takes hard work. Jacob Collier talented as he is didn’t just fall out of bed one day and improvise that stuff.

Even the videos I make take hours and hours of editing and so on. And they are hardly top level.


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[henryrobinett]

Yeah… too true

Tbh doing socials WELL is a whole artform in itself. It takes hard work. Jacob Collier talented as he is didn’t just fall out of bed one day and improvise that stuff.

Even the videos I make take hours and hours of editing and so on. And they are hardly top level.


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Jacob Collier is signed to Quincy Jones. Before that he got notoriety in high school selling vocal arrangements to New York Voices and others. No he didn’t drop out of the sky. His videos promoted what he does to the nth degree but he was KNOWN before he started doing them. And yes it takes a lot of work. I know this as well.


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[Reg]

Yea... so my point about Dewey Square...

Anyway... the melody implies and uses extensions and altered chord tones... sort of.

I mean yes you could just play boring triads and even vanilla 7th chords as notated on chart or what typical bop changes imply or even think vanilla Oh Lady be Good. And your improv could develop in similar style....

But unless your really good.... that will end up nowhere.

Playing the changes implies more than just using basic chord tones and standard functional contrapuntal guidelines.

Trying to use the key center approach... well you would need to understand how to expand what a Key Center implies and understand how to use multiple key centers and how to organize what that implies.... musically in a style.

Or... expanding how Functional Guidelines.... expand and change with different tonal references. Some may even say... using Blue Notes and modal concepts within Functional organization.

Or simple version... get out of the vanilla mode.

It's almost like thinking, hearing or feeling with... "rhythmic subdividing" like organization. Which can be difficult at typical speeds of jazz.

[DawgBone]

Dunno, perhaps you’re right. What I know is the gigging musicians where I am - some absolute beasts - are nowhere on YouTube much. Hardly any views. As I understand it YT is irrelevant to bookers.

Some of them have a decent but not huge Instagram followings, which I think may have more impact, but this is mostly because venues will expect them to do ALL the promotion, and getting people through the door. So you have to be able to hustle the gig and build up the social networking too. It’s both.

If you book/get booked at one of the known London jazz venues like the Pizza Express or the Vortex this is how it works by and large. If you fill the place, they like you.

(Ronnie’s is different because it’s a tourist attraction so there’s usually a good audience. You get on their radar. I’ve played at Ronnie’s because I know a guy, or I know a guy who knows a guy. Etc…. )

(I believe TikTok has been the focus for a while, not on there.)

But the ground is constantly shifting.

(And someone’s presumably still fixing the bands for the Laufeys of this world.)

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More or less agree with everything you wrote in regards to gigging but I have def gotten gigs based on youtube/facebook videos. The number of likes is irrelevant because that can be a gamed system but a live video speaks for itself. Also, anyone who takes five minutes to scroll the page can see playing engagements listed going back more than a decade in multiple states, cities, towns. I also do a lot of corporate bike events and one bike event has definitely begotten another through the grapevine but as well as having those social media posts. Dealerships are inclined to hire people that they know will understand the routine and be reliable.

It's just one tool to help booking but as you said, most places stick with who they know because it's a safer bet than bringing in new bands. Def agree, that most of the regular players are not posting endless videos and a lot of the quality hired guns would be hard to find by name at all through youtube so unless they have their own personal musician page or something they are just pick up artists but are some of the more dangerous players around, when they are around, because they are always gigging.

[ragman1]

Playing the changes vs. playing over the key center

Both, depends on the tune.

In fact, I'm not sure how you can separate them. If you have a 6-2-5-1 or a 5-2-1-4 you can't just noodle around with a major scale and call it playing the key center. The chords have to be clear, which means you're playing the changes. So it's both at the same time.

Modal tunes, obviously, can go all over the place so simply playing a key center doesn't really apply. But even modal tunes can have spots where a temporary key center is evident. So you're back to both again.

Take a tune like So What. There are two distinct key centers, Dm and Ebm. Are you playing the key centers or the changes?

[ragman1]

At the end of the day, as they say, you can't beat knowing the whole tune so well you barely have to think about it.