New ways to practice scales/making music out of scales

[Reg]

You need to get out more ... many drummer do... actually hear and ask about Harmony.... Rhythmic skills is another one of those givens... if you don't have it, you usually don't get many calls.

Eventually you develop skills of using Harmonic references to help imply longer Rhythmic patterns and styles. You know how to develop patterns, accent patterns that help music know where it might go....

Maybe you don't get it or just don't want to.... it can really help your playing.

[pamosmusic]

You need to get out more

Well I won't argue with you there.

Maybe you don't get it or just don't want to.... it can really help your playing.

I actually do get it. Expanding harmony based on targeting different parts of it than just the chords written on the page, etc etc. I honestly just don't think it's a terribly compelling way of thinking about the music. In the real music people listen to and perform, we're almost always talking about pretty simple stuff––implying pedal points and stuff like that. And a weak or uninteresting or unconvincing melody with hip harmony sounds weak, uninteresting, and unconvincing. A strong and idiomatic melody over the "vanilla" changes sounds hip as heck.

And hey man ... maybe it's just the New York drummers. They know the tune and the changes but lord almighty do they not give a crap how I'm "addressing the harmony in my improvisation" or whatever. Or maybe that's changed since I left. I guess I wouldn't know any more.

EDIT: exceptions to the "simple stuff" are obviously around too ... Coltrane, Herbie, etc.

[Kirk Garrett]

The condescension is just delicious!


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[pamosmusic]

The condescension is just delicious!


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I throw myself on the mercy of the forum

[Mick-7]

What I've done to work on that is write etudes over chord changes. Pick a 2-5-1 and sing a line independent of the guitar, and then figure it out on the guitar. It's key to sing it first to avoid falling into any mechanical patterns on the guitar and really make it guided by your ears. Maybe try transposing it into different keys so you can practice finding that sound on different parts of the neck. You can expand this to a chorus of a tune you want to work on for example. This kind of practice, combined with transcribing, is, imo, the best way to expand your vocabulary but also to help you create your own personal vocabulary.

Yes, I used to compose solos, write them down, practice and play around with them, it's a very effective way to build your improvisation skills.

The condescension is just delicious!

Especially over vanilla ice cream!

[Mick-7]

Do you like my new screen name?

I didn't think you were serious - should have known.

[Bobby Timmons]

Why not live the dream? Even if it's online..

[Reg]

Hey Peter... all good.

But just to make sure you do get it...

The simple is going on all the time... and sure great melodic development is beautiful.

But its not... that using different Harmonic References or as you seem to think of it as using targets to change the chords on the page.... it's more like having more layers of harmony going on... at the same time... How the layers work together.

It become more like the connecting thread that holds the different harmonic layers together.

It's not that you can't still have ..as you said.."strong and idiomatic melody over the "vanilla" changes sounds hip as heck."

It becomes you can also have more going on... which make the soloist and the ensemble...even sound better...LOL.

Most guitarist don't have strong rhythmic skills.... I've been saying this for ever, get your chops together and it will help vanilla and simple playing become interesting etc.... hell I'm simple most of the time..... but I'm not in slow motion.

And again most don't spend all their time soloing.... Harmonic awareness is generally used more that melodic cells.

It's all required LOL. And when your talking about Practice technique... it's different from Performance technique.

One is for developing skills and the other is for connecting the skills.

[pamosmusic]

But just to make sure you do get it...

Got it. You should probably be aware by this point, though, that your vocabulary is extremely idiosyncratic. Like I’ve never heard anyone else use it, before. So people using a different vocabulary or coming at things from a different angle are not necessarily wrong or needing to get out more (I do, just not for that reason).

If I’m going to be blunt with you, your way of talking about music just doesn’t land with me. I know some stuff, and I’ve spent a lot of time with a lot of different musicians, and I just don’t really like thinking about music in the terms you use. I don’t think about or hear music in the same terms and so I don’t sound the same as you. I don’t particularly want to either, for whatever that’s worth. Which, from what I understand, is fine.

I think you could make some space for other people to have a valid perspective even when it differs from yours.

For example:

It's not that you can't still have ..as you said.."strong and idiomatic melody over the "vanilla" changes sounds hip as heck."

It becomes you can also have more going on... which make the soloist and the ensemble...even sound better...LOL.

This is literally what I’ve been saying. The melodic skills enhance whatever you’re doing. Simple harmonic stuff, lovely. Complex stuff, all the better (maybe). The harmonic stuff with no melodic vocabulary, though, sounds dull and rote. So I focus on simple melodic vocabulary first. Is it more important to work on chords and harmony and comping? That’s a valid point, but it’s not what the dude in the OP was asking. So it’s not what I answered with. It's not that I'm "ignoring the ensemble" or "just playing with backing tracks" or "don't get it or don't want to get it" or "need to get out more" (which ... again ... I absolutely do, but just not for this particular reason).

[wolflen]

Why not live the dream? Even if it's online..

Hey Jimmy Smith..(ahh gone but not forgotten) live the dream offline too..

[rpjazzguitar]

Once you know the basics, I think playing in a big band is an excellent way to progress.

For one thing, when the guitar is voiced like one of the horns, you get immediate feedback on your accuracy. Not just when you hit the note, but when you release it, and how you articulate it (all those little letters and symbols).

You also get to read a lot of different syncopation, since the arrangers all want to do something novel.

And, you get used to keeping your place while your eyes are moving left to right to read the basic material, but also jumping up and down because the chord symbols are above the staff and the rhythms are usually within the staff. And you can't complain, because the pianist has all of that, plus the left hand and probably reads it all.

And, the rhythms are usually notated as slashes which means that you have to figure out what to play.

During a break, take a look at say, a trombone chart. Most of it is likely to be empty space even when the guitar chart is filled with ink. And, no eyes moving up and down. It's all within the staff.

[Christian Miller]

here’s the classic Bird solo on Yardbird Suite, for whoever wanted to see a transcription I’ve done.

Sounds really good.

Right, so now I’d say the next step is to envisage yourself as a sort of Pleistocene hunter who’s taken down a mammoth. It took energy and effort. Well done.

You now want to make use of everything you can out of that animal. The meat, of course. But the hide can make clothes. The bones can make a house. (Sorry for the image, but that’s where my brain went.)

I see a lot of people online playing solos through with the recording, super impressively, as you have done. I’m always curious as to what other things they have done with the material.

Some of the greats transcribe a thousand solos. Some great players never transcribe a single solo all the way through but work on short licks. There’s no single right way to do it, but all of them find ways to work with the material.


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[Christian Miller]

Fortunately I’m insufferable and can’t help it and my toddler is watching Pepa Pig.

Hey that’s my line!


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[AllanAllen]

Once you know the basics, I think playing in a big band is an excellent way to progress.

For one thing, when the guitar is voiced like one of the horns, you get immediate feedback on your accuracy. Not just when you hit the note, but when you release it, and how you articulate it (all those little letters and symbols).

You also get to read a lot of different syncopation, since the arrangers all want to do something novel.

And, you get used to keeping your place while your eyes are moving left to right to read the basic material, but also jumping up and down because the chord symbols are above the staff and the rhythms are usually within the staff. And you can't complain, because the pianist has all of that, plus the left hand and probably reads it all.

And, the rhythms are usually notated as slashes which means that you have to figure out what to play.

During a break, take a look at say, a trombone chart. Most of it is likely to be empty space even when the guitar chart is filled with ink. And, no eyes moving up and down. It's all within the staff.

It’s also really fun to be in a big band. The aural experience is amazing. So much natural sound.

[pamosmusic]

Hey that’s my line!


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I’m willing to share.

[pauln]

For what it’s worth, it’s been a while since a drummer asked me about my harmonic reference, but maybe that’s just the company I keep.

Drummers may not call it harmonic reference, but their highest aggregate level is song form which may be subdivided (into a hierarchy of resolution). As a drummer, they are the de facto leader, they own the form, and they conduct navigation of the form by playing things that sound like, "repeat this A part again" or "proceed into the B part", etc. They know the vamps, the embedded 2-5s, the turnarounds, the shifts between straight and Latin... and play a percussion vocabulary communicating beat, articulation, and phrasing to the ensemble. They know how to "read" the others' preferences for relative density and superposition with regard to the rhythm section, with regard to the accompaniment of solos... many other things.

[pamosmusic]

Drummers may not call it harmonic reference, but their highest aggregate level is song form which may be subdivided (into a hierarchy of resolution). As a drummer, they are the de facto leader, they own the form, and they conduct navigation of the form by playing things that sound like, "repeat this A part again" or "proceed into the B part", etc. They know the vamps, the embedded 2-5s, the turnarounds, the shifts between straight and Latin... and play a percussion vocabulary communicating beat, articulation, and phrasing to the ensemble. They know how to "read" the others' preferences for relative density and superposition with regard to the rhythm section, with regard to the accompaniment of solos... many other things.

Ah, so Harmonic Reference also encompasses "the shifts between straight and Latin."

Remarkable term, this one.

[jazznylon]

An interesting way to play scales is to base it off the chromatic scale without the stretches. So for instance the Major scale would look like this


5 - 7
5 - 6 - 8
5 - 7
7 - 9
7 - 8 - 10
8 - 10

(Start from index finger)

The premise is to shift your hand by 1 fret for each string change except between the B-G Strings in which case you stay put. The neat thing about this is that the fingering order is the same from the lower 3 bass strings to the higher 3 strings no matter which scale you are using. Its the same fingerings from the major 3rds tuning I used to work on but instead of staying in position one ends up shifting due to the perfect fourths in standard tuning.

[AllanAllen]

Drummers may not call it harmonic reference, but their highest aggregate level is song form which may be subdivided (into a hierarchy of resolution). As a drummer, they are the de facto leader, they own the form, and they conduct navigation of the form by playing things that sound like, "repeat this A part again" or "proceed into the B part", etc. They know the vamps, the embedded 2-5s, the turnarounds, the shifts between straight and Latin... and play a percussion vocabulary communicating beat, articulation, and phrasing to the ensemble. They know how to "read" the others' preferences for relative density and superposition with regard to the rhythm section, with regard to the accompaniment of solos... many other things.

I dunno about all that. How can you tell if the stage is level? Drool is coming out both sides of the drummers mouth.

[pamosmusic]

I dunno about all that. How can you tell if the stage is level? Drool is coming out both sides of the drummers mouth.

I mean … good drummers absolutely know all that stuff. They *should* know the tunes as well as the other instruments, just differently.

I play with a drummer now and again who learned basically the whole omnibook when he was in college. Playing the rhythms, approximating the contour of the lines with the different drums etc.

Ive also played with drummers who don’t know forms and don’t ask.

But that’s not all that different from the range of guitarists I know either.

[pauln]

Ive also played with drummers who don’t know forms and don’t ask.

Just being able to keep time, not drop beats, not rush, not drag during fills and provide additional sounds of activity now and then aren't enough (also applies to guitarists).

[pamosmusic]

Just being able to keep time, not drop beats, not rush, not drag during fills and provide additional sounds of activity now and then aren'tt enough (also applies to guitarists).

Was it not clear that I agree with this?

[pauln]

Was it not clear that I agree with this?

Was it not clear that I do not disagree with you?