Your licks are too long (Video)

[Christian Miller]

I've worked with horn players that play solos made up of just sequences. Rather than vomit in their instruments, I chose to express my boredom with the predictability of their solos by playing their lines with them on their solos.
While they're good exercises for teaching beginners (especially horn players, who can't use fretboard patterns; Phil Woods used to have his students practice them in all keys), one would hope they'd come up with more involved lines that players like Lee Konitz, Warne Marsh, Frank Strozier, John Coltrane, Art Tatum Pat martino Ta lFarlow Jimmy Raney Phil Woods etc..,played.
Even melodies like Donna Lee and Freedom Jazz Dance consist of lines that have more than five notes in them.

Maybe I didn’t do a very good job of communicating in the video but none of this is what I’m advocating. Or maybe you are responding to the video title. (Which should be ‘your licks are too long’ not ‘lines’ - the link wont correct for some reason.)

For instance Donna Lee certainly has a number of brief repeated phrase modules/motives - for example the celebrated honeysuckle rose motif - that can be very useful as improvisational raw materials. Small unitary motifs can be useful for both embellishing melodies and joining together to create longer lines.

Btw I don’t imagine I’m addressing advanced jazz improvisers with this video. I doubt those looking to be the next Phil Woods are getting their lines from Jens Larsen vids or mine - hopefully (pace Jens, he’d agree I’m certain.)

Maybe I should do is another video showing how to spin out longer lines using these little musical segments.

In terms of melodic sequences these are notably rare in Birds music.


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[Christian Miller]

Okay chop it down to five notes, but then you've got what is obviously an F7 lick for 13 notes, even running over the Bb7 of the next measure with a Gb which was probably meant to be the b9 of the F7, but is now the #5 of the Bb7. Who would play a Gb Ab Gb F Eb idea over a Bb7? The arpeggiated Bb9 chord in the next two beats going to the G and F of the next measure is obviously meant as the end of that lick, but then you've got a huge 14 note Bbm7 idea starting with two non-harmonic surrounding notes of the 11th of the Bbm7, or are the next two notes two more surrounding notes of the F the fifth in the Bbm7?

It may surprise you to learn I filmed all of that analysis (although mine isn’t identical) and cut it out. It ran to about 10m. I wanted to focus on the process not the material, which is interesting for its own sake but derailed what I wanted to say. I do stuff like this all the time.

Perhaps this proves your point. But I think the emphasis of a certain point at the expense of others is part of the technique of teaching. It’s also necessary for music theory of any kind (Schenker being an extreme example haha). I don’t think this is something that started with formal jazz education.

You may also notice that my video doesn’t emphasise note by note analysis. This is quite conscious.

Anyway - The first note is the hippest one, no? We outline Em triad into F. You won’t find that in a jazz manual.

Also F7 over the first chord again shows to me how Bird, like swing era musicians, regarded major and dominant chords as somewhat interchangeable, something jazz players don’t tend to do today.

The point is, in real life, trying to simplify things down to these little rules that Barry Harris or whomever comes up with, results in arguments like these, which is time better spent coming up with your own ideas.
Jazz improvisation takes place on a much more intuitive level than this type of thought.
Do you think Tal Farlow or Lee Konitz came up with the lines that they played from following these rules?
Barry Harris never even played with Bird, because he didn't even come to NY till 1960, and Bird was dead for five years. He just copied Bud Powell and Stitt's records, and stayed in Detroit, lecturing to whoever would listen to him about Bird, when all the time it was Bud Powell that was his main influence.

I don’t feel that any of this is directly in response to anything I’ve put forward. Fwiw Barry’s students included some rather notable musicians, and I don’t get the feeling Stitt was an influence - he was quite critical of Stitt regarding his time feel and phrasing.

His knowledge of Parker’s recordings was exhaustive but I don’t think anyone would disagree that Bud was his chief influence. The two do rather go together.

I do sympathise with your feelings regarding the technicisation (is that a word?) of jazz etc. I don’t think that’s what Barry was about but his idea lend themselves to a neat system. People into this stuff seem to talk about that more than the music itself which bothers me. It’s like they’ve delegated the listening side of it to someone else. Probably it’s the new CST.


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[Mick-7]

"I might do one called that. Consistency is for the small minded!"

You're paraphrasing Oscar Wilde, who said: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

So as applied to art, I suppose that would translate to: "don't let a hobgoblin become your muse" (check her credentials).

[Christian Miller]

"I might do one called that. Consistency is for the small minded!"

You're paraphrasing Oscar Wilde, who said: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

So as applied to art, I suppose that would translate to: "don't let a hobgoblin become your muse" (check her credentials).

Oh nice! It was at the back of mind that there was a quote but couldn’t recall…


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[lawson-stone]

"I might do one called that. Consistency is for the small minded!"

You're paraphrasing Oscar Wilde, who said: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

So as applied to art, I suppose that would translate to: "don't let a hobgoblin become your muse" (check her credentials).

It was actually Emerson who said "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." Oscar Wilde's quote was "Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative."

I feel better now.

[sgcim]

Maybe I didn’t do a very good job of communicating in the video but none of this is what I’m advocating. Or maybe you are responding to the video title. (Which should be ‘your licks are too long’ not ‘lines’ - the link wont correct for some reason.)

For instance Donna Lee certainly has a number of brief repeated phrase modules/motives - for example the celebrated honeysuckle rose motif - that can be very useful as improvisational raw materials. Small unitary motifs can be useful for both embellishing melodies and joining together to create longer lines.

Btw I don’t imagine I’m addressing advanced jazz improvisers with this video. I doubt those looking to be the next Phil Woods are getting their lines from Jens Larsen vids or mine - hopefully (pace Jensen, he’d agree I’m certain.)

Maybe I should do is another video showing how to spin out longer lines using these little musical segments.

In terms of melodic sequences these are notably rare in Birds music.


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I think the click bait presentation of it immediately triggered my reaction to it. I pictured a line of jazz musicians who played long lines houses being raided by the Jazz Police, put in chains, and then sent to the Barry Harris Re-education Camp, where they were hooked up with electrodes to their brains and then given electro-shocks administered by Pasquale Grasso if they played any licks that contained more than five notes.
You don't have that in mind for us, do you?

[Tal_175]

I think the intended title was more like "The licks you are learning are too long.".

[Mick-7]

Oscar Wilde's quote was, "Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative."

Well thanks, I like that one even better!

What is their second to last refuge? Politics?

[mr. beaumont]

Interesting is to look at say, Jimmy Raney, on whose playing people would often wax poetic about his "long, effortless, endlessly flowing lines."

Then sit down and actually pick apart one of his solos...

[Christian Miller]

I think the click bait presentation of it immediately triggered my reaction to it. I pictured a line of jazz musicians who played long lines houses being raided by the Jazz Police, put in chains, and then sent to the Barry Harris Re-education Camp, where they were hooked up with electrodes to their brains and then given electro-shocks administered by Pasquale Grasso if they played any licks that contained more than five notes.
You don't have that in mind for us, do you?

It’s like you’ve looked inside my mind…
;-)


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[Christian Miller]

I would say the clickbait title is necessary for people to watch the video, but noone watched it haha.


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[ccroft]

With the discussion, it sounds like maybe the title around here should be 'Your bop licks are too long.'

Martino is pretty famous for both his long licks and his extremely short ones that are repeated for a very, very long time. I love Pat.

It seems a lot of what Christian puts up is about teaching jazz to beginners and intermediates. We sometimes feel a bit 'talked down to'. I do anyways. At times. Other times I learn things!

[Christian Miller]

With the discussion, it sounds like maybe the title around here should be 'Your bop licks are too long.'

Martino is pretty famous for both his long licks and his extremely short ones that are repeated for a very, very long time. I love Pat.

It seems a lot of what Christian puts up is about teaching jazz to beginners and intermediates. We sometimes feel a bit 'talked down to'. I do anyways. At times. Other times I learn things!

Ok I’ll stop posting them then, although there are a fair number of beginners and intermediates on the forum. It isn’t all about you, you know!

Also I’m not sure that Pat spinning out long lines is really relevant to what I mean. Maybe the video wasn’t clear.


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[GuyBoden]

although there are a fair number of beginners and intermediates on the forum.

Yes, there seems to be plenty of beginners and intermediates on this forum, who will benefit from non advanced posts like this video.

After over 45years of playing guitar, I'm still in the beginner to intermediate level, and very proud of getting there too.

Maybe, some players on the forum don't know how advanced they are.

Keep up the good work, Christian.

[pamosmusic]

Ok I’ll stop posting them then, although there are a fair number of beginners and intermediates on the forum. It isn’t all about you, you know!

Also I’m not sure that Pat spinning out long lines is really relevant to what I mean. Maybe the video wasn’t clear.


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I don’t know man. Video was pretty clear to me.

For what it’s worth, I do feel talked down to most of the time, but I feel that’s an essential part of the experience of your content and I wouldn’t trade it for the world.

[pamosmusic]

Also I don’t find this to be like … a “beginner” post …

I think it would be helpful to a beginner, but—music being a thing you do—I find anything different than the way I do it to be very helpful to me as well.

[AllanAllen]

I would say the clickbait title is necessary for people to watch the video, but noone watched it haha.


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That’s the way it goes.

I found it helpful. 5 well placed notes sound better to me than 16 bars of straight 8ths.

[pamosmusic]

That’s the way it goes.

I found it helpful. 5 well placed notes sound better to me than 16 bars of straight 8ths.

With you there.

And I feel like another obvious point being that a compelling long line is generally made up of many compelling small parts.

[Christian Miller]

I don’t know man. Video was pretty clear to me.

For what it’s worth, I do feel talked down to most of the time, but I feel that’s an essential part of the experience of your content and I wouldn’t trade it for the world.

Hmm. Well my intention here is not really to belittle others, but i do spend a lot of my time dealing with small children, so it’s a classic teacher pitfall I guess.

Essential? I don’t know. I could change my style of presentation a bit. What isn’t a deal breaker for you might be for others. Just because I’m like that irl doesn’t mean it needs to part of my videos haha.

OTOH it was never my original intention to be a YouTube jazz guitar teacher. I think YouTube pushes would in that direction.


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[Tal_175]

With the discussion, it sounds like maybe the title around here should be 'Your bop licks are too long.'

Martino is pretty famous for both his long licks and his extremely short ones that are repeated for a very, very long time. I love Pat.

It seems a lot of what Christian puts up is about teaching jazz to beginners and intermediates. We sometimes feel a bit 'talked down to'. I do anyways. At times. Other times I learn things!

Pat Martino is actually a good example of a player whose long 8th note lines are a series of connected recurring 4-5 note phrases.

[pamosmusic]

Hmm. Well my intention here is not really to belittle others, but i do spend a lot of my time dealing with small children, so it’s a classic teacher pitfall I guess.

Essential? I don’t know. I could change my style of presentation a bit. What isn’t a deal breaker for you might be for others. Just because I’m like that irl doesn’t mean it needs to part of my videos haha.

OTOH it was never my original intention to be a YouTube jazz guitar teacher. I think YouTube pushes would in that direction.


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Christian, I am joking.

[pamosmusic]

I also feel like if we’re going to be complaining about YouTube clickbait titles then we also need to complain about crazy YouTube thumbnail graphics.

This is a road I think we can all agree not to go down.

[Christian Miller]

Christian, I am joking.

Haha ok. Maybe touched a raw nerve?


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[Christian Miller]

I also feel like if we’re going to be complaining about YouTube clickbait titles then we also need to complain about crazy YouTube thumbnail graphics.

This is a road I think we can all agree not to go down.

Haha true. Sad fact is People wouldn’t do this dumb stuff if it wasn’t necessary. If you spend ages on a video the last thing you want is no one to watch it.


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[Christian Miller]

Pat Martino is actually a good example of a player whose long 8th note lines are a series of connected recurring 4-5 note phrases.

I might be wrong, but the only way I can think of spinning out eighth note lines at tempo without resorting to longer canned licks is by chaining small modules together.


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