Some phrases arent made for guitar?

[JimmyDunlop]

Hi. Maybe someone has an idea about this.
I like to make these type of phrases but for some reason I think they fit way more on a trumpet than in a guitar. I suspect there are Styles of phrasing that fits more into some instruments. I recorded with mobile phone so sound not good but you can get the idea

Stream shi.mp3 by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud
For example the 0:20 -0:35

Or here
Stream sh2(2).mp3 by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud
0:10-0:20

I improvise but in my head I am thinking of a trumpet.
Escucha chicago de Jimmy Dunlop en #SoundCloud
Stream chicago by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud
But for example this I think It fits for the guitar but the 2:40-2:50 phrases would fit more for a trumpet

[Lionelsax]

I wouldn't say that, on first and second takes you play the guitar, on the third one you play music.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Hi. Maybe someone has an idea about this.
I like to make these type of phrases but for some reason I think they fit way more on a trumpet than in a guitar. I suspect there are Styles of phrasing that fits more into some instruments. I recorded with mobile phone so sound not good but you can get the idea

Stream shi.mp3 by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud
For example the 0:20 -0:35

Or here
Stream sh2(2).mp3 by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud
0:10-0:20

I improvise but in my head I am thinking of a trumpet.
Escucha chicago de Jimmy Dunlop en #SoundCloud
Stream chicago by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud
But for example this I think It fits for the guitar but the 2:40-2:50 phrases would fit more for a trumpet

On the first two examples you play all the notes very short and percussive. Maybe you should practice at a lower speed and also listen analytically a lot to trumpet music at a lower speed. Take a more uptempo tune played by a more rhythmically oriented trumpeter like Dizzy (or maybe folks like Roy Eldridge or Erkine Hawkins suit your style better). Listen to the phrasing at 75 % speed and especially take care of the note lengths -- easily doable in the settings of a YouTube video in case you do not own a software doing time-stretch. Vibrato can help lengthening notes on an accoustic guitar. When listening also note how the trumpeters use vibrato and small bends. Hope that helps.

EDIT: The most important aspect of horn-like phrasing is how horns use legato.

[djg]

EDIT: The most important aspect of horn-like phrasing is how horns use legato.

indeed. they use it very sparingly

imo jazz phrasing is mostly non-legato. jazz lines need some sort of separation of the notes. to my ears most current jazz guitarists play waaay too legato.

here#s my favourite trumpet player bill hardman.

[kris]

Are there any technical tricks used in the recording....eg. changing the tempo of the recording?
or i'm deaf..

[GuyBoden]

indeed. they use it very sparingly

imo jazz phrasing is mostly non-legato. jazz lines need some sort of separation of the notes. to my ears most current jazz guitarists play waaay too legato.

Modern Jazz Sax IMHO uses a lot less tonguing, more legato.

"playing without any tonguing exposes your finger technique and thus, through improved awareness, helps both the time and feel in your fingers. Secondly, it seems to really help improve overall sound and breath support since you won't be breaking the airstream at all with the tongue which allows for a smoother more consistent air stream and sound."

[JimmyDunlop]

I wouldn't say that, on first and second takes you play the guitar, on the third one you play music.

I don't know if I understood.
But maybe you have a point. What I tried to say with my post is that the third recording phrases would sound better on a guitar and the first 2 recordings would sound better on a trumpet.

[Lionelsax]

I don't know if I understood.
But maybe you have a point. What I tried to say with my post is that the third recording phrases would sound better on a guitar and the first 2 recordings would sound better on a trumpet.

The third sounds good, the others don't.
On the third you play music with a guitar.

[kris]

why would you think that? i hear nothing out of the order (just great playing all around). does the metric modulation put you off?

The guitar sounds very high and I can't hear the lower strings...
I don't know what guitar it was recorded on.
Maybe I'm deaf...sorry.

[Christian Miller]

Whatever you call this remains my ideal of jazz articulation

I would regard this as legato. Those that got closest to it on guitar. Not every note is played alike.

Are not legato in the guitar slurring sense. Quarter notes are a little detached but the eight notes are connected

but separation of eighth notes can work too. I’ve been listening a lot to Dan Wilson and I love how he plays. I think it depends on the player. That said, I generally don’t like that choppy thing a lot of modern straightahead horn players do where every note is attacked the same and slightly detached. Sounds like they are playing the notes rather than phrases. But if your pocket is amazing, you can get away with that too.

[djg]

The guitar sounds very high and I can't hear the lower strings...
I don't know what guitar it was recorded on.
Maybe I'm deaf...sorry.

oh, you referred to the original post. sorry!

[JimmyDunlop]

The guitar sounds very high and I can't hear the lower strings...
I don't know what guitar it was recorded on.
Maybe I'm deaf...sorry.

I dont know what you mean, I can hear all the notes

The third sounds good, the others don't.
On the third you play music with a guitar.

I disagree, I found them musical. I will try to make another recording for you, changing the style

[Lionelsax]

I disagree, I found them musical

Yeah, you're right, it's the very best music I've ever heard.

[kris]

I dont know what you mean, I can hear all the notes



I disagree, I found them musical. I will try to make another recording for you, changing the style

I'd like to hear you play these tuness at a slower tempo.
I mean solo on the full scale of the instrument.
thanks

[JimmyDunlop]

I'd like to hear you play these tuness at a slower tempo.
I mean solo on the full scale of the instrument.
thanks

what do you mean with full scale on the instrument? Didnt I use it on the other recordings?

[djg]

I would regard this as legato. Those that got closest to it on guitar. Not every note is played alike.

Are not legato in the guitar slurring sense. Quarter notes are a little detached but the eight notes are connected

but separation of eighth notes can work too. I’ve been listening a lot to Dan Wilson and I love how he plays. I think it depends on the player. That said, I generally don’t like that choppy thing a lot of modern straightahead horn players do where every note is attacked the same and slightly detached. Sounds like they are playing the notes rather than phrases. But if your pocket is amazing, you can get away with that too.

yes, CC influenced the first wave of bop guitarists. but bebop imo already demanded a more bouncy non-legato phrasing. in my personal opinion this caused jazz guitar to fall somewhat behind in the 50s.

of course the king of non-legato playing was jimmy smith. his playing style greatly influenced a certain john coltrane. it#s also worth to closely listen so eddie mcfadden, who is certainly very influenced by smith's super swinging non-legato lines. to my ears mcfadden is closer to the style of bird than the household first generation of bop guitarists (kessell, wayne, salvador, lowe, raney, singer, etc)

[JimmyDunlop]

I'd like to hear you play these tuness at a slower tempo.
I mean solo on the full scale of the instrument.
thanks

this is ok ?
Stream avalon by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

And the other slower as u asked
Stream shine.mp3 by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

[pamosmusic]

I don’t think the phrases are weird for guitar or anything. It just doesn’t sound like there’s much phrasing going on … dynamics, accents, slurring etc.

[Christian Miller]

yes, CC influenced the first wave of bop guitarists. but bebop imo already demanded a more bouncy non-legato phrasing. in my personal opinion this caused jazz guitar to fall somewhat behind in the 50s.

of course the king of non-legato playing was jimmy smith. his playing style greatly influenced a certain john coltrane. it#s also worth to closely listen so eddie mcfadden, who is certainly very influenced by smith's super swinging non-legato lines. to my ears mcfadden is closer to the style of bird than the household first generation of bop guitarists (kessell, wayne, salvador, lowe, raney, singer, etc)

Interesting... I'll have a listen and a think. I can certainly hear the connection with post-Trane sax from Jimmy's playing now you mention it, not a link I'd considered.

[djg]

Interesting... I'll have a listen and a think. I can certainly hear the connection with post-Trane sax from Jimmy's playing now you mention it, not a link I'd considered.

[JimmyDunlop]

I'd like to hear you play these tuness at a slower tempo.
I mean solo on the full scale of the instrument.
thanks

Look i made a new one better and slow
Stream shine3.mp3 by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

[djg]

Modern Jazz Sax IMHO uses a lot less tonguing, more legato.

"playing without any tonguing exposes your finger technique and thus, through improved awareness, helps both the time and feel in your fingers. Secondly, it seems to really help improve overall sound and breath support since you won't be breaking the airstream at all with the tongue which allows for a smoother more consistent air stream and sound."

i think it's fair to mention the author (matt otto, right?) if you quote him.

i#d disagree with the "time and feel" part. personally i find most of these legato players rather floaty. same with the current crop of legato guitarists. imo playing non legato lines much more exposes your time. but floaty seems to be the order of the day, so dont mind me.

[Christian Miller]

I have a problem with the common guitarists understanding of legato.

As an ex singer, legato is a basic element of technique. But just because you sing legato does not mean you are not going to sing the words.

otoh on guitar, legato is used often as a synonym for slurring. I don’t see it that way. I see it as the connection between the notes, as opposed to separated or detached. (Legato means literally ‘bound’ - ie connected.) You can articulate each note with a clear separate attack and still be legato.

Many players default to legato, but some players vary the level of connection. Grant Green springs to mind.

we spend so much time in the first few years trying to get players to hold down the notes with the left hand for the full value and here for stop sounding like they are poking at each note, it’s easy to forget that the opposite is a valid and effective musical articulation.

[Christian Miller]

Listening again to topsy i think the transcription I posted misuses the staccato sign. The notes are short, but fat.

The exact articulation of the quarter notes has a lot of swing in the negative space of the note. Charlie’s 8th note playing is highly articulated but also very legato.

[djg]

Many players default to legato, but some players vary the level of connection. Grant Green springs to mind.

grant's default is non-legato. he has all kinds of legato artuculation in his bag but his eight note lines are clearly (to my ears) non-legato.

i studied this solo hard and just went back to listen at .25 speed to confirm the clear separation of notes most of the time.

of course benson ran with this concept and his first jazz recordings mirror that non-legato approach.