Generic Question - How do you Improvise?

[kris]

I don't discriminate between musicians' approaches lol. I judge them based on their music, not how much theory they use. The majority use theory, so I wouldn't ever advocate that not using theory is a superior approach.

I don't think we understand each other...
What I mean is that musicians sometimes play in such a way that they go beyond theories.
Then the people who deal with the theory try to justify it theoretically.Sometimes a musician just gets it wrong, and theorists call it something brilliant.

[Bobby Timmons]

Probably

[Christian Miller]

I wouldn't have recorded the tune without knowing the chords! And the melody. Don't know what all the fuss is about. Like an actor going on stage not knowing his lines. Good lord.

'Oh, just wing it, son, you'll be great'. Yeah, right.

The best band I ever played with was American. They turned up early, scouted the venue, played through every tune till they got the feel of the joint, went for supper, then played a hot set which had the place jumping. Being with them felt safe, like you were being carried along. That's what I call professional.

Such a change from casual Brits who turned up, drank too much, got through it, wandered off again, and thought they were the bees knees. No thanks.

Theory's got nothing to do with it.

thats been my experience. Americans have more of a work ethic, Brits more likely to think they can wing it.

[Christian Miller]

I don't think we understand each other...
What I mean is that musicians sometimes play in such a way that they go beyond theories.
Then the people who deal with the theory try to justify it theoretically.Sometimes a musician just gets it wrong, and theorists call it something brilliant.

A related issue is that two musicians might not analyse music in the same way. Analysis is in the eye of the beholder. It doesn’t grant an objective way of understanding music. People sometimes learn different lessons from the same music, which is interesting.

today we are very keen to explain what we do. It’s an information rich world…. Once, musicians were content to play and leave it at that…

[kris]

thats been my experience. Americans have more of a work ethic, Brits more likely to think they can wing it.

And this is my experience....and great fun;

[Peter C]

^That is some badass picking by Kris, that's all that matters. Sax is no slouch.

[mr. beaumont]

Why didn't he just learn the whole tune by ear and then play by ear? I thought that's what everyone did in the golden age? And therefore what we're supposed to do? (Not trying to straw man you or any individual but people do say that. You probably wouldn't even need to leave the thread to find something along those lines.)

Because it was a recording session and they weren't getting paid to rehearse.

You seem to think playing by ear means not knowing what the chords to a tune are. You keep setting up premises that just aren't realistic.

[ragman1]

think playing by ear means not knowing what the chords to a tune are.

I'm not siding with anyone here but that's a very good point. It often seems to mean that, like going in blind.

Of course, with some tunes or kinds of music (like blues, country, etc) it can be done but generally onstage or in a studio it's a little crazy. Studios cost money apart from anything else.

Yet, it just occurred to me, that's what Coltrane did with Giant Steps. Poor old Tommy. And if that player hadn't asked Monk for the changes he'd have been pretty stuck too. Even if he'd winged it, it wouldn't have been as good it could have been.

[Bobby Timmons]

Because it was a recording session and they weren't getting paid to rehearse.

You seem to think playing by ear means not knowing what the chords to a tune are. You keep setting up premises that just aren't realistic.

I'm setting up unrealistic premises? Talking in chord symbols is theory. Inferring that he probably wanted to know the chords because he would further use theory to improvise isn't off base either. If it is, it's much more realistic of a premise than 'I think I read somewhere so and so played everything by ear.' Sure, I agree with you that there was probably ear going on but there obviously was theory going on too.

[ragman1]

Talking in chord symbols is theory.

No, theory is knowing what they are, how they're constructed, what their function is in the piece, and all that blah. Anyone can say 'This is a C chord'.

Unless you really want to stretch a point, of course :-)

[Bobby Timmons]

Monk had a score in notation only and he reduced it to simple chord symbols.. He likely had extensions in there so knew everything about spelling chords. If one can weasel their way out of Rouse using theory, it isn't possible with Monk here. Rouse also asked Monk if the G-7 to Db7 was 'vis a vis', like it's a 2-5? And Monk said yes. So he was asking about their function. You guys are really out there.

YARN | You guys are out there like fucking Pluto, man. You'''re gone! | Lethal Weapon (1987) | Video clips by quotes | f33c2980 | 紗

[grahambop]

You can see the actual chart here, it was up for sale for $75,000!

Monk Manuscripts For Sale | DO THE M@TH


Actually (according to the Robin Kelley biography) Monk did not like handing out lead sheets at recording sessions, so Rouse was probably lucky to even get a look at this one. Monk usually used to teach the other musicians his new tunes by ear at the piano, he thought they would play better that way. However it meant that the recording sessions usually overran and drove the producer up the wall. Apparently it took 11 takes for them to get Boo Boo's Birthday done!

Here's what the book says about it:

When the quartet returned to the studio a week later, they left having recorded only one usable version of “Boo Boo’s Birthday.” Much of the time was devoted to simply learning the song—Rouse had to transpose the melody in the studio, and even Monk had difficulty with the melody. “It has a funny amount of bars,” he confessed. “I’m just naïve like they are. I make up something and I don’t even know what it is, so I look at it again myself. It’s new to me!” So new it took eleven takes to get it right.


Kelley, Robin DG. Thelonious Monk: The Life and Times of an American Original (p. 393). Aurum Press. Kindle Edition.

[ragman1]

I don't know what Monk had, we couldn't really see it. He did a lot of grunting, though, and said 'Yeah, Gb' or something. It doesn't tell you a lot. Maybe he didn't really know himself... which opens up a very big can of worms.

[Bobby Timmons]

Yeah he could notate a song and reduce it to simple chord symbols but didn't use theory. Sure.

[grahambop]

I don't know what Monk had, we couldn't really see it. He did a lot of grunting, though, and said 'Yeah, Gb' or something. It doesn't tell you a lot. Maybe he didn't really know himself... which opens up a very big can of worms.

See my post just before yours, in fact Monk’s actual chart can be viewed online.

Maybe Monk was a bit reluctant to tell Rouse the chords, that would not be out of character. (Another thing it says in the book is that Monk would tell them to use the melody to improvise, he said something like it was all they should need!)

[Christian Miller]

You can see the actual chart here, it was up for sale for $75,000!

Monk Manuscripts For Sale | DO THE M@TH


Actually (according to the Robin Kelley biography) Monk did not like handing out lead sheets at recording sessions, so Rouse was probably lucky to even get a look at this one. Monk usually used to teach the other musicians his new tunes by ear at the piano, he thought they would play better that way. However it meant that the recording sessions usually overran and drove the producer up the wall. Apparently it took 11 takes for them to get Boo Boo's Birthday done!

Here's what the book says about it:

When the quartet returned to the studio a week later, they left having recorded only one usable version of “Boo Boo’s Birthday.” Much of the time was devoted to simply learning the song—Rouse had to transpose the melody in the studio, and even Monk had difficulty with the melody. “It has a funny amount of bars,” he confessed. “I’m just naïve like they are. I make up something and I don’t even know what it is, so I look at it again myself. It’s new to me!” So new it took eleven takes to get it right.


Kelley, Robin DG. Thelonious Monk: The Life and Times of an American Original (p. 393). Aurum Press. Kindle Edition.

Those are amazing. Nothing left to chance I see! Monk is pretty composed…

[Christian Miller]

See my post just before yours, in fact Monk’s actual chart can be viewed online.

Maybe Monk was a bit reluctant to tell Rouse the chords, that would not be out of character.

I think he was also leery about musicians playing the wrong voicings. For instance he didn’t like people playing sevenths on Well You Needn’t

Perhaps for the horn players he liked them to play more melodically instead of spamming bop lines everywhere…

[kris]

Yeah he could notate a song and reduce it to simple chord symbols but didn't use theory. Sure.

You use the word theory a lot.
I'm curious - when you improvise you think more about theory or about music.
...for example... on a dominant/alt chord you can play phrases built on different scales so how do you know which scale will be the best?
Will theory help you choose the most appropriate scale?I mean the way you think when you actually play.

[JimmyDunlop]

You use the word theory a lot.
I'm curious - when you improvise you think more about theory or about music.
...for example... on a dominant/alt chord you can play phrases built on different scales so how do you know which scale will be the best?
Will theory help you choose the most appropriate scale?I mean the way you think when you actually play.

How to improvise? Just close you eyes and play, you will be improving, if you are constant

[ragman1]

See my post just before yours, in fact Monk’s actual chart can be viewed online.

Maybe Monk was a bit reluctant to tell Rouse the chords, that would not be out of character. (Another thing it says in the book is that Monk would tell them to use the melody to improvise, he said something like it was all they should need!)

Thanks, missed that, sorry. Well, er, I say nothing. Good luck to the whole gang!

[ragman1]

I think he was also leery about musicians playing the wrong voicings.

Well (many expletives) let him give them the right ones!

which, by the sound of it, he didn't know himself

Thank god I just do my own thing on an internet forum!

[kris]

How to improvise? Just close you eyes and play, you will be improving, if you are constant

I always sleep with my eyes closed.

[Christian Miller]

Well (many expletives) let him give them the right ones!

which, by the sound of it, he didn't know himself

Thank god I just do my own thing on an internet forum!

he literally wrote a piano score, you daft plonker - with all his voicings specified in notation, like a classical composer would. Graham linked it. There’s only so much you can specify in a chord symbol, so a score makes sense.

Presumably you can click on a link…

Even if he hadn’t done that anyone with a modicum of musicality can compare takes of his tunes from various recordings. but it does show the extent to which he meant to play what he played. Anyway he was the piano player in the group. The chords were up to him.

Not his fault jazz musicians took a more general approach to the changes. I like the Wes version of Round Midnight for example, but it’s not the way Monk wrote it. I can understand his annoyance. Wes seems to be playing Miles changes… Miles was forever messing up peoples tunes anyway, which is funny because we often play Miles’s versions of his repertoire. It’s the rock the Real Book is built on.

Monk knew exactly how he wanted things to sound. I personally love the way his music sounds. But that doesn’t matter; it’s clear as it could be HE knew and heard what he was doing.

I know it’s difficult for a lot of people to get their head around. Not everyone wants to spend their time insipidly noodling around the ‘good sounding’ notes.

[grahambop]

Disputing with ragman is like dancing about architecture.

[John A.]

^That is some badass picking by Kris, that's all that matters. Sax is no slouch.

Sax is frickin’ Bobby Watson. Kris, wow! Playing with him is huge.