Pat Martino greatest improviser on fast tempos?

**DawgBone** · 02-12-2023, 10:23 PM

Tal Farlow is the greatest improviser on fast tempos. He's on a different level than Martino or Pass in that regard IMO. Check Cherokee with Lenny Breau. Lenny is killer but Tal Farlow is on another level altogether in the sheer improvisational excellence with speed department.

**princeplanet** · 02-12-2023, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by DawgBone

Tal Farlow is the greatest improviser on fast tempos. He's on a different level than Martino or Pass in that regard IMO. Check Cherokee with Lenny Breau. Lenny is killer but Tal Farlow is on another level altogether in the sheer improvisational excellence with speed department.

It's funny how I can never get into Tal, I find the stop-starty bursts really distracting and, um, unmusical ..

Parker was king of where to stop and start bop phrases, and certainly guys like Raney got good at it for a guitar player, however Pat Martino just didn't seem to wanna go there- haha - but then, neither did Bach, and I can listen to him all day too...

**princeplanet** · 02-12-2023, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

Of all the 'greatest' statements, this one could be the most accurate. Many play competently at up tempos, but Pat retains his tremendous sense of momentum and musicality. Although it would have to be among guitarists. He'd have to bump up a few levels to get to Jimmy Smith level. :P

1:58

haha! poor guitar player in that band having to solo either before or after Jimmy! But Pat would hold his own in organ trios, and often outshine the organist.

**whiskey02** · 02-12-2023, 11:55 PM

Do piano and saxophone forums even have threads about speed? Different instruments make sounds by different mechanical devices, and some devices are naturally faster and slower. I've read that studies showed that people not trained or practiced on keyboard instruments can move their fingers to strike the keys as fast as pro pianist's. Pro's can hit the notes they want, but anyone can wiggle their fingers to press keys just as fast. I don't think some bozo pulled off the sidewalk and given a guitar and pick could naturally coordinate picking and fretting movements. The guitar is, by it's very nature (and the nature of human mechanics) less capable or suited to playing and super fast tempi. I accept this fact, while striving always to better my technique, and I don't think this makes the guitar less of an expressive device than piano or sax. I think it has different expressive qualities, as does any instrument. It's up to the player to "make their statement"/ express themselves with their chosen axe. Jim Hall didn't play at Charlie Parker tempo's but he damn well said what he wanted say with the capabilities he and his instrument had to work with.

**Gabor** · 02-13-2023, 12:47 AM

the only sentence which is ultimately seems true for me about Pat Martino, he "drives". I would not go into the reasons why, because many of posts before explained it well.

I am wondering how the listener listens music. I mean which mindset? Is it "how on earth is he doing it?" (because exactly this is what we adoring when viewing Formula 1, or when seeing a magician) Of course we enjoy speed and great technique, both in sport, and also in entertainment industry, just to mention two different areas.

back to the listener mindset, I look for invention (I mean, in the actual notes, not style), surprises, and I whish the music lead me somewhere spriritual experiment. I always got that from at least dozen(s) guitar players and horn players, not talking about pianists.

Regarding Pat I never got that. The solo starts, keeps exactly how it started, then ends (exactly how it started). I must admit, nobody on guitar can do those 16s so convincing. If anyone played the very same notes on piano, I probably did not even notice it.

yes I know I am listening a different Pat. so I tried to explain my perception.

**Bobby Timmons** · 02-13-2023, 01:30 AM

See I love Pat's style. I personally wouldn't do hella practice to learn conversion to minor, but listening to his playing, I love it. It has a nice cool clean sound, fat tone, good even powerful rhythms, then he throws in some spiky and bluesy stuff in between the cool sound. Here he is with my teacher.

**wintermoon** · 02-13-2023, 01:57 AM

Pat was absolutely incredible. Never boring or repetitive to me but ymmv. I don't know how that frail little guy played like that w super heavy gauge strings on top of it. And as great as he was on El Hombre at 21 he was that much better later, listen to the Yoshis record for example, unlike Tal who kind of lost it later imo. Agree w sgcim, prime Raney and Farlow right there as well as Billy Bean.

**sgcim** · 02-13-2023, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

It's funny how I can never get into Tal, I find the stop-starty bursts really distracting and, um, unmusical ..

Parker was king of where to stop and start bop phrases, and certainly guys like Raney got good at it for a guitar player, however Pat Martino just didn't seem to wanna go there- haha - but then, neither did Bach, and I can listen to him all day too...

Here's Tal back in 1954, with a full quartet. It's still too fast, but at least it's in time.
According to someone I know that wrote an unpublished book on him, he had a degenerative disease of the nervous system, which messed with his timing.
Compare the two versions, and decide which is better:

**princeplanet** · 02-13-2023, 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by sgcim

Here's Tal back in 1954, with a full quartet. It's still too fast, but at least it's in time.
According to someone I know that wrote an unpublished book on him, he had a degenerative disease of the nervous system, which messed with his timing.
Compare the two versions, and decide which is better:

OK, I'll bite

I think his articulation is possibly better here, even at this ridiculous tempo, but it sounds like a sideshow act, as in "come inside the tent ladies and gentlemen and witness the fastest guitar player alive, who can play Cherokee even faster than the great Charlier Parker himself ! ).

The thing is, Charlie Parker at 320 sounds like Music, but Tal at 400 sounds like bursts of machine gun, like he's struggling to just make the lines. Just doesn't sound like controlled expression. To me, at least...

Now some say they don't connect with Pat, that he sounds too "range bound" perhaps and fair enough, but you gotta admit, he always sounded in control of what he was playing , and that's something that can't be said of either Wes or GB - I've heard plenty of live recordings where they sound like they're struggling...

Hmm, but it's not just about control for me either... I mean, Pass sounds like he's mostly in control, but just doesn't move me, and Raney sounds at times like he's close to stumbling, but it's cool because he's "going for it"... geez, I don't know, it's impossible to speak about this stuff really. I guess to paraphrase Miles, it either "goes into your body", or it doesn't...

**Bobby Timmons** · 02-13-2023, 05:04 AM

I connect with Pat's controlled range bound minor cookin with spiky bluez thrown in.

**ragman1** · 02-13-2023, 07:06 AM

And here's this one (live)... not sure myself.

**ragman1** · 02-13-2023, 07:16 AM

While we're at it, here's another one. You can see how he'd grab an audience. It's not particularly fast, of course.

**Christian Miller** · 02-13-2023, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by sgcim

Pat was said to have practiced 36 hours in a row once!
After a pianist friend just emailed me a video of Pasquale Grasso playing Cherokee with that Emmett dude, with a note saying, "This guy has great chops, but he says nothing musically", it further strengthened my belief that alt. picking is the best way to play jazz.

this seems like an odd conclusion to reach on that basis lol

theres plenty of alternate pickers who are musically marginal.

A video of PG alternate picking on a med. tempo tune further strengthened my thesis. He sounded great!
I should state that after hearing PG playing solo guitar on one of those lessons that a friend of mine bought, PG is the greatest SOLO jazz guitarist alive.
As far as MUSICALLY improvising fast in jazz guitar, my opinion is that Jimmy Raney and Tal Farlow (only in the 50s!) are still the best IMHO.

Tal Farlow didn’t alternate pick. Look carefully at his picking hand.

Raney picked in whatever way suited the phrase. Almost like he was a musician or something. You couldn’t play like Raney using alternate picking alone.

**PMB** · 02-13-2023, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

And here's this one (live)... not sure myself.

That's many years after Bean's glory days (Billy became both an alcoholic and reclusive) and he stills sounds pretty fine.

I mentioned Jesse van Ruller earlier so here's his solo on Just Friends (and a bunch of other tunes) from a jam at The Crow in Eindhoven, Netherlands. These were recorded back in 2000 when Jesse was in his 20s. Incredible stuff!:

**Christian Miller** · 02-13-2023, 07:37 AM

So this is for me is a clear dramatisation of what I mean. Joe Pass plays amazing here, swinging, precise, highly musical. But his phrases are kind of rhythmically square compared with Oscar Peterson’s playful facility. And this is only 260, hardly an upper echelon bop tempo.

As pass may have been the Oscar of guitar, I have to conclude it’s the instrument.

Maybe one day someone will solve this. But I haven’t heard anyone yet. Pasquale does well, but he loses a bit of rhythmic precision at the higher tempos to my ears.

I mean, it’s not like I can do better lol. I’m not meaning that. It’s just the nature of the problem of jazz guitar.

none of which matters that much. There’s plenty of music to be made below 260. I just feel that no guitarist can claim to be in the same league as horns or pianos when it comes to uptempo bop.

**Christian Miller** · 02-13-2023, 07:44 AM

George benson on a decently up oleo

insane guitar playing - yes. But again, the beat is squared off somewhat, phrases start on the beat and it’s even eighth notes. Otoh you couldn’t accuse George of sounding like a machine gun and he’s very smooth even at this hairy tempo and, naturally, perfectly in time via some witchcraft or superpower sort of arrangement. But his phrases seem to me to have an interesting shape.

when he injects rhythmic variety he plays half time.

I think it’s just the way we do things as pickers - chunk things together with a downstroke on 1. Doesn’t matter if you alternate or if you are directional.

**grahambop** · 02-13-2023, 08:26 AM

Not great sound quality, but here’s some great playing by Billy Bean, in fact I’ve started transcribing this one. I think I read somewhere that he influenced Martino a bit, I might have imagined it though.

**princeplanet** · 02-13-2023, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

While we're at it, here's another one. You can see how he'd grab an audience. It's not particularly fast, of course.

Certainly made me smile! Holy Moses, what is it about this guy! One minute into his solo and I found myself thinking "Um, what this thread about again?"...

**princeplanet** · 02-13-2023, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Not great sound quality, but here’s some great playing by Billy Bean, in fact I’ve started transcribing this one. I think I read somewhere that he influenced Martino a bit, I might have imagined it though.

Yeah, this the BB record that made me an instant fan, authoritative tone, tasty lines, slinky chromatics, what's not to love ? (OK, maybe a coupla hesitations..).
The JVR is pretty cool too, for a modern cat ...

**DawgBone** · 02-13-2023, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

OK, I'll bite

I think his articulation is possibly better here, even at this ridiculous tempo, but it sounds like a sideshow act, as in "come inside the tent ladies and gentlemen and witness the fastest guitar player alive, who can play Cherokee even faster than the great Charlier Parker himself ! ).

The thing is, Charlie Parker at 320 sounds like Music, but Tal at 400 sounds like bursts of machine gun, like he's struggling to just make the lines. Just doesn't sound like controlled expression. To me, at least...

I think you are struggling with your criticisms more than he is struggling with his lines. "He's too stoppy-starty" "machine gun bursts". So he should just play endless lines? Then you'd say he's overplaying. I guess if you can't show how it's done on your guitar the next best thing is to tear down the playing on a guitar forum. There are people out there who would classify every guitar solo in this thread, and Parker's playing, as wang wang bullshit. For most people none of those solos are saying anything other than "look at me" playing gobs of random notes so there are plenty of musical plebes out there who will be in agreement with you except they want to hear Tennessee Whiskey instead of jazz guitar. Most people don't get jazz at all which is why it sells so poorly, regardless of the tempo. You're entitled to your opinion but it sucks, is poorly stated, and isn't accurate. A highly critical yet oversimplified description of his sound. Nor would most of the jazz world agree with it regardless of what else is stated on this forum. You should duck back behind your couch.

I doubt anyone will ever be on the same page as the sign painter. He even sports a troll face while demonstrating who the master is.

**princeplanet** · 02-13-2023, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

George benson on a decently up oleo

insane guitar playing - yes. But again, the beat is squared off somewhat, phrases start on the beat and it’s even eighth notes. Otoh you couldn’t accuse George of sounding like a machine gun and he’s very smooth even at this hairy tempo and, naturally, perfectly in time via some witchcraft or superpower sort of arrangement. But his phrases seem to me to have an interesting shape.

when he injects rhythmic variety he plays half time.

I think it’s just the way we do things as pickers - chunk things together with a downstroke on 1. Doesn’t matter if you alternate or if you are directional.

Yeah, insane, he gets it in the Tal zone, and maybe then some, but it's still a bit "show pony" dontha think?

Don't get me wrong though, I've always felt GB is the most exciting player we've ever had on the instrument, but I'm so disappointed that his recordings always sounded so-so in his exciting youthful phase. Nothing wrong with his playing obviously, he's always been the Monster's Monster, but if it's not the sound of the recording (too spiky or unbalanced), then it's the players in his sessions (too busy, too messy)... I dunno... must be just me, I've never heard any one else complain, but all those albums before Breezin' could have been so much better, IMVHO

Shame really, I mean he really should have made the greatest Jazz guitar records during that era.

Wrong band? Wrong Producers? Wrong labels? WTF happened? (Or am I way out of line here?) ...

**princeplanet** · 02-13-2023, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by DawgBone

I think you are struggling with your criticisms more than he is struggling with his lines. "He's too stoppy-starty" "machine gun bursts". So he should just play endless lines? Then you'd say he's overplaying. I guess if you can't show how it's done on your guitar the next best thing is to tear down the playing on a guitar forum. There are people out there who would classify every guitar solo in this thread, and Parker's playing, as wang wang bullshit. For most people none of those solos are saying anything other than "look at me" playing gobs of random notes so there are plenty of musical plebes out there who will be in agreement with you except they want to hear Tennessee Whiskey instead of jazz guitar. Most people don't get jazz at all which is why it sells so poorly, regardless of the tempo. You're entitled to your opinion but it sucks, is poorly stated, and isn't accurate. A highly critical yet oversimplified description of his sound. Nor would most of the jazz world agree with it regardless of what else is stated on this forum. You should duck back behind your couch.

I doubt anyone will ever be on the same page as the sign painter. He even sports a troll face while demonstrating who the master is.

Hehe, relax chief, check the title of the OP, the dude was asking for our opinions... Just so happens I got some, just like you do!

Sheesh, its just a guitar forum FFS ...

**DawgBone** · 02-13-2023, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Hehe, relax chief, check the title of the OP, the dude was asking for our opinions... Just so happens I got some, just like you do!

Sheesh, its just a guitar forum FFS ...

Yep, and your infantile criticisms put you in the dumbed down Tennessee Whiskey crowd so enjoy the company you get when you shit on the technique of legendary players. You could always show how it's done by posting some of your own playing but we both know that ain't happenin.

**mr. beaumont** · 02-13-2023, 10:22 AM

It's not an opinion that Tal's time suffered when he took on those insane tempos. It's a simple fact. And the fact that he could even "get through" shows you how good he was. But it's not something I'd listen to often.

Pat's time was pretty much always locked in, and he played fast tunes, but not Cherokee at 400 to the best of my knowledge. And yeah, it gets "machine gunny," but it grooves.

I'm not going to pick a favorite or "best" fast player, but Pat sure as hell was a damn good fast player.

**princeplanet** · 02-13-2023, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by DawgBone

Yep, and your infantile criticisms put you in the dumbed down Tennessee Whiskey crowd so enjoy the company you get when you shit on the technique of legendary players. You could always show how it's done by posting some of your own playing but we both know that ain't happenin.

Ah, ya got me, dagnammit dawg...