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Careful Mr B, we got ourselves a newcomer lurking around here, and something tells me he may be related to Tal Farlow, or something...
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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02-13-2023 10:28 AM
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Asking the wrong person. I've never been a GB fan actually, despite admiring his playing. There's an awful lot to admire. But I've always preferred other players for some reason. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Yeah, insane, he gets it in the Tal zone, and maybe then some, but it's still a bit "show pony" dontha think?
Don't get me wrong though, I've always felt GB is the most exciting player we've ever had on the instrument, but I'm so disappointed that his recordings always sounded so-so in his exciting youthful phase. Nothing wrong with his playing obviously, he's always been the Monster's Monster, but if it's not the sound of the recording (too spiky or unbalanced), then it's the players in his sessions (too busy, too messy)... I dunno... must be just me, I've never heard any one else complain, but all those albums before Breezin' could have been so much better, IMVHO
Shame really, I mean he really should have made the greatest Jazz guitar records during that era.
Wrong band? Wrong Producers? Wrong labels? WTF happened? (Or am I way out of line here?) ...
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The level of execution, precision and time is mind blowing. Such a great player, it's a shame he's not better known. Originally Posted by grahambop
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Lol, I'm not afraid to talk facts. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Careful Mr B, we got ourselves a newcomer lurking around here, and something tells me he may be related to Tal Farlow, or something...
The other fact about Tal playing at 400 is there's probably nobody else in jazz history who even attempted that (on record, at least)
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A quick reality check
You think - ah that's a nice relaxed feel. And then you check the tempo and it's 300bpm
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I would accept your juvenile remarks more readily if you had posted some of your own speedy playing live with a group demonstrating that you have more of a grasp of what is being discussed than your childish descriptions of his playing imply you do. This isn't the first time I've listened to someone demean his playing, mostly because they will never approach that level. I get why you do it. "I can't/will never be able to play that way therefore I don't like the playing of someone who does and here are my insults/reasons why". Kind of reminds me about remarks jazz critics have said about Parker and Tatum in times prior. Your playing cannot be compared to them, therefore, tear down the style as less than legitimate so you will not be held next to a standard you know you cannot parallel. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Careful Mr B, we got ourselves a newcomer lurking around here, and something tells me he may be related to Tal Farlow, or something...
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It would be great to prohibbit tempos over 240. It could solve many problems (particurlary for me) but first of all, it would allow us in this very forum to finally talk about music :-)
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On a side note - I know a swing dance DJ who used to play Tal's Cherokee for competition dancers. Now THAT I would like to see....
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dude, tell me about it. I used to play in this project (Gypsy Jazz) where the only solos I took were invariably at 240bpm +, often closer to 280-300. three or four of those in a gig, and I start to run out of stuff to play. I actually used to find it very stressful; especially as in this band there was no guitar or piano backing me up (yeah I know it's meant to be GJ right? WTF?), sometimes drums if I was lucky. Originally Posted by Gabor
I asked the other members why they used to give me those tunes and they said half jokingly 'you are the only one in the band who can play them.' Which was nice, but I hated having my playing basically be a stunt, especially as I didn't have the reliable practice time to keep up that level of battle ready chops all the time (two kids and doing a uni course at the time). I don't think I played that well, and it didn't feel like music TBH. Young man's game innit.
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that is an opinion, kinda declaration like, without any further thoughts, but still may be valid. Originally Posted by DawgBone
Here is other one on the same level: Tal Farlow is not the greatest improviser neither on fast or slower tempos. Not even amongst guitarists.
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Anyone ever had a heart attack in the middle of a fast solo?
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His lines are great but sometimes it feels like the time is getting away from him a bit here at points - TBF the tempo is crazy, the time would get away from me too haha.
It also sounds like he's warming up as well a little bit by the time he gets to the fours?
Lenny sounds like he is using a lot of slurring and a bit more in the pocket. A lot of passage work, scalar sequences, almost quite shreddy. Tal's more obviously playing bop lines with syncopation and so on. I think Tal's going for something more complex than Lennie music wise, and taking more risks.
The guitar is flipping hard, innit.
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Oh dear, OK, you seem to be new here, and I'm not sure, but your tone seems to betray perhaps a lack of experience (among other things, like, er, decorum and stuff) in online forum discussions? Originally Posted by DawgBone
See, here I can say things like "I don't care for Pasquale Grasso's phrasing", or "I think Miles Davis is an ass-hole" , and everyone is OK with that. But if I were to say "I think DawgBone is an ass-hole" (as much as I'd like to), that, my friend, is not considered ok. I hope this helps you understand. Now, I don't mind being called "juvenile" or "childish" (actually, I rather like it), but if you use that tone with other members here, they may not. Heck, you might even get cancelled...
Yeah, I know, but it's just the world we live in...
Right, so are we good? Or do we need to take this offline to a cutting contest where I whoop yer ass with my Oleo at 500 fuckin' BPM?
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While listening to it or playing it? Originally Posted by ragman1
Anyone ever had a heart attack in the middle of a fast solo?
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Agree. Farlow sounds sloppy on this track and he's my favorite bop guitar player. Originally Posted by princeplanet
OK, I'll bite
I think his articulation is possibly better here, even at this ridiculous tempo, but it sounds like a sideshow act, as in "come inside the tent ladies and gentlemen and witness the fastest guitar player alive, who can play Cherokee even faster than the great Charlier Parker himself ! ).
The thing is, Charlie Parker at 320 sounds like Music, but Tal at 400 sounds like bursts of machine gun, like he's struggling to just make the lines. Just doesn't sound like controlled expression. To me, at least...
Now some say they don't connect with Pat, that he sounds too "range bound" perhaps and fair enough, but you gotta admit, he always sounded in control of what he was playing , and that's something that can't be said of either Wes or GB - I've heard plenty of live recordings where they sound like they're struggling...
Hmm, but it's not just about control for me either... I mean, Pass sounds like he's mostly in control, but just doesn't move me, and Raney sounds at times like he's close to stumbling, but it's cool because he's "going for it"... geez, I don't know, it's impossible to speak about this stuff really. I guess to paraphrase Miles, it either "goes into your body", or it doesn't...
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be warned opinion follows, if you are in emotional connection with your heroes, please ignore it :-)
I found this recording depressing btw. (Tal and Lenny) Lenny's sound is terrible, kinda self-serving deviance. Tal's time is repeatedly sloppy, his execution is so unclear, this ruins the whole purpose. (if there was any, besides the narcistic self production) I found no traces of music.
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Now would be a good time to just maybe mention our favorite fast players.
I do not claim Doug was the best, but man do I love his playing on fast tunes...or medium tunes...or ballads...or...
(I think this is only 280 ish? FAST to me)
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Imo it's kind of a cop out to write off playing because it's mega up and the musicality will necessarily suffer. I personally don't want to self harm and force myself to play at that speed, or listen to it all the time, but it is what it is and they are doing a pretty good feat. Sometimes it actually sounds good too haha. Pat to me sounds almost at the musicality level of Parker at the up tempos. His approach is different, more smoothed out and range bound, and he doesn't quite have the expression within the fast tempos that Parker does, but he always sounded like he was doing the controlling of the playing rather than sounding like he was dying like a lot of guitarists and just trying to get in random phrases. I usually enjoy that, or at the least wouldn't find fault in any of it.
metul Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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There used to be better footage of Bireli playing this tune on youtube but oh well. This one is not blazing fast but yeah...
John McLaughlin, of course. I don't care if it's machine gun, sounds exciting and fun to me...
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That Bireli is burning! A lot of the times, I don't like his playing on electric guitar as much...his attack seems so hard (obviously from playing acoustic so much) and the notes get splatty...but this is damn clean.
I've seen folks shit on that McLaughlin performance too, but I think it's fun and exactly what the situation called for...it's the freaking TONIGHT SHOW.
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now we are talking :-)
Bireli's time excels, even how he comps the tune, you feel, well this is an other level of swinging.
McLaughlin is way underrated in this forum, it would be interesting to resolve why...
It is funny how McLaughlin, who's contribution to music obviously not his bebob, how comparable with the heros mentioned here...
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There's a lot more to this than many in the thread seem to appreciate. First, though, I think it's a bit disingenuous for any of us to call the playing of greats like Farlow, Benson, Breau, Martino etc sloppy, stoppy-starty, overplaying etc. And calling any of these guys out for sins like "narcisistic self production" [sic - I assume this means narcissistic self promotion] just seems off base. The solos used as examples are among the most challenging playing imaginable. And what we're hearing from each of the players being used as examples is the sum total of their complex combinations of technique, playing style, idiosyncrasies, inspiration, taste, judgment, experience, mood of the moment etc. They're not automatons who can play every note in every tune exactly as we (or they) want to play every time they play it.
When does a slight rhythmic irregularity become sloppiness? Every one of those guys probably laid down some blazing playing that was rhythmically perfect and some that was not so much. We're hearing criticism of close to perfect timing as playing like a machine gun, and criticism of looser approaches as sloppy. The rapid fire strings of notes are bland and formulaic to some of you and exciting melodic flows to others. But in truth, there are both slow soulful solos and blazing technical exercises from each of them. Like the rest of us, they all have / had better days and worse days, but they still had to play scheduled gigs and do scheduled recording dates. So there's some natural variation among all of anybody's recordings and performances.
The simple truth is that the worst day any of them have / had during their careers was probably far better than the best day most of us have ever had. After thousands of gigs, I can honestly say that on most days, I try things to keep my playing fresh, to see how they sound, and to continue to improve my playing. I try different fingerings, hand positions, picking styles, harmonies etc on any gig other than a straight ahead chart date (for which I'm paid to play what the contractor wants me to play, not to amuse myself and experiment). My bet is that many of those blazing tunes were done that way largely for fun and to see what could be done with them at those tempos. I love pushing the envelope, and I'm sure Tal Farlow did too. It doesn't always come off as mind altering, and even when it's not perfect it's interesting for the audience and educational for the player.
I hear a lot of criticism of rhythm tracks and drum machines as being too perfect. There are many posts on JGO about how mechanical and artificial they sound. People complain that they like the natural variation of a real drummer becuase it makes the music sound organic. But when a guitar player s good as Farlow, Benson, Martino etc does it, it's sloppy? That's just not right in my book.
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So we're all bad people because we've been asked, and we're sharing our personal preferences? OK...
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Oh, either will do :-) Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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:-) Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
I always feel sorry for the bass players. No breaks for them. And bare fingers.
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