JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 23) - Lady Bird

[wzpgsr]

I'm officially confused...where are these offensive #11's in the melody?

I started a mess! Firstly, lemme state that I don’t find them offensive in any way—I actually like them—just that they don’t appear in any of the recorded versions I have except Campbell / Whiteman project. The notes in question are the “periods” at the end of the first two melodic statements: the final E over Bb7 and the A over Eb7. Look up the Campbell / Whiteman project or have a listen to John A.’s acoustic take above for reference. Barry Harris does something a little different yet again. I have a feeling that this may be a good example of charts—perhaps they appear in some version of the Real Book—differing from recorded versions. My Aebersold charts don’t have the #11s, and neither do I hear them in a lot of the historical recorded versions.

[John A.]

I started a mess! Firstly, lemme state that I don’t find them offensive in any way—I actually like them—just that they don’t appear in any of the recorded versions I have except Campbell / Whiteman project. The notes in question are the “periods” at the end of the first two melodic statements: the final E over Bb7 and the A over Eb7. Look up the Campbell / Whiteman project or have a listen to John A.’s acoustic take above for reference. Barry Harris does something a little different yet again. I have a feeling that this may be a good example of charts—perhaps they appear in some version of the Real Book—differing from recorded versions. My Aebersold charts don’t have the #11s, and neither do I hear them in a lot of the historical recorded versions.

They're in the Real Book 5th Edition. Could be one of the many mistakes propagated by that, or it could be that's how people played it, so that's how it got written down there, or it could be transcribed from a specific version or performance. Thinking about this a bit more, it's actually a very interesting question. Dameron was known for actually writing things out (he mostly made his living as an arranger). So there probably are actual charts of this tune in his hand (unlike, many other bop tunes), which could in theory answer the question of what's the right way to play this. But maybe not. For example, he may have written it out more than one way or changed it over the years, or maybe despite it being written one way he was cool with lead players having their way with it on the stand. The tune kind of stands as a microcosm of the whole written vs oral tradition tension in jazz.

[ragman1]

I think we just play them if we want to. We certainly don't have to. Lots of people didn't. Dexter Gordon did and he survived :-)

Anyway, here's another one, as we can do multiple takes.

[PickingMyEars]

Early Pete B and the great Melvin Rhyne! Great album.

Some other great recordings:

some of these recordings have been referenced before, but it's interesting to hear them back to back. Never noticed the b5 on the melody. I like it, but wouldn't do it every time.

By the way, that Barry Harry album above: GET IT. Christian, do you remember my utter excitement when you told me about it? Pure bebop poetry.

Also interesting to hear Don Byas without Charlie Parker. Don was a MONSTER of a player!

[ragman1]

Never noticed the b5 on the melody.

I suppose it's easy to read those two notes as flat because of the chords.



Maybe they should have natural signs in parentheses. That would do it :-)

[mr. beaumont]

Interesting stuff.

I learned this one by ear (mostly from Chet's version and Bud Powell's as a "check against") and I always assumed the last "real" melody note of those first 2 lines was the dotted quarter on the first beat...and anything after was just a "doodle" of sorts.

The #11 doesn't bother me, but it certainly doesn't add so much to the melody that I'd go out of my way to play it.

Looking forward to chilling this evening and checking some of the latest versions posted here out.

[PickingMyEars]

that's what y'all are talking about?!?



I think of that as being the major 3rd of the key of the tune. Even in that progression, it's a sub for a key progression in C major.

Thanks for the clarification, Rag.

Don't get too caught up in the vertical.

Dexter plays that note with style, whatever the hell ya wanna call it.

I thought there was a version with an F# in the first 4 measures... I was confused.

[ragman1]

Yes, but my other sheet says this:



Confusing, ain't it?

[TOMMO]

Since we're discussing different versions of details: there's two differing chord changes regarding the Eb and Db in the turnaround: one where both chords are major7 and one where both are dom7. Any opinions or favourites?

[ragman1]

I'm not too worried about the EbM7 but I prefer a Db7 at the end because you can get the Ab mel over it.

The nat E over the Bb7 clonks more than the nat A over the Eb7 because the A leads neatly to the AbM7 (2-5-1 tritone).

But in any case I think the soloing's more important than the head.

[ragman1]

I always assumed the last "real" melody note of those first 2 lines was the dotted quarter on the first beat...and anything after was just a "doodle" of sorts.

The #11 doesn't bother me, but it certainly doesn't add so much to the melody that I'd go out of my way to play it.

Yup, I'd say that was the balanced view.

[John A.]

that's what y'all are talking about?!?



I think of that as being the major 3rd of the key of the tune. Even in that progression, it's a sub for a key progression in C major.

Thanks for the clarification, Rag.

Don't get too caught up in the vertical.

Dexter plays that note with style, whatever the hell ya wanna call it.

I thought there was a version with an F# in the first 4 measures... I was confused.

Dexter plays F over the Bb7 and Bb over the Eb7, not E / A.

That aside, for the ones who do play E / A, I tend to hear in terms of the key of C maj, and it actually took me a few readings of these posts to figure what everyone was talking about.

Interesting stuff.

I learned this one by ear (mostly from Chet's version and Bud Powell's as a "check against") and I always assumed the last "real" melody note of those first 2 lines was the dotted quarter on the first beat...and anything after was just a "doodle" of sorts.

The #11 doesn't bother me, but it certainly doesn't add so much to the melody that I'd go out of my way to play it.

Looking forward to chilling this evening and checking some of the latest versions posted here out.

That's probably right. Bud Powell and Barry Harris play E / A as passing notes F / Bb and make it seem more like ornaments than formal parts of the melody.

Yes, but my other sheet says this:



Confusing, ain't it?

The Dameron recording I've heard has that. Anyway, just the full measure of G / C feels kind of incomplete to me, and I like to play something, but there's usually a horn player playing the melody, so who cares what I think?

[rpjazzguitar]

[ragman1]

Nothing like a noodle in the morning. Beware, this is not bebop

[John A.]

I went to a jam session yesterday, and called Lady Bird. The Trumpet Player said "let's play Half Nelson instead," so I didn't get to hear how she played the head. I talked to the piano player afterwards (pro player who knows a bazillion tunes) and asked what he plays. We sang through the three variants (whole measure of just G / C vs going to E / A vs going to F / B b. ) He picked E / A. He asked if I knew what the original does, I sang the version with just G / C. His response? ¯\_(?)_/¯ There you have it. I'm going back to the Tootsie Pop question now.

[rpjazzguitar]

John A, Triple and Tommo, all have great feel and nice lines. Rag makes recordings that sound like he wrote the tune. Having an instantly identifiable style is not a simple thing.

Jeff continues to sound like somebody I wish I'd taken lessons from years ago.

[Triple_Jazz]

Since we're discussing different versions of details: there's two differing chord changes regarding the Eb and Db in the turnaround: one where both chords are major7 and one where both are dom7. Any opinions or favourites?

I think I prefer the all major version though I do like a Eb6/9 and a Ab6 for those. The Db I like M7 or depending on my mood Db13 but that would be the only time I’d throw the bVII

[PickingMyEars]

John, how was your jam session? Was it the first since C19 hit in March (February... who's counting anyway)?

Went to my first jam since COVID on father's day. Outside jam session, but the bar made it look really nice. Hell, it was my treat to myself--though I did enjoy recording some music with my tot, she's quite the little drummer!

My playing was RUSTY, but it felt AMAZING to play with REAL people!

Note to self, learn Georgia... A horn player called it and it wasn't in the book... Yeah, I looked dumb not knowing it.

You should all come to Seattle. We got us some fine musicians in these parts. Some of whom you already know on the forum. Seriously, though. Just don't come in the Winter... too rainy

Rag, you need to call another ballad. You just turned Lady Bird into a Ballad. I like that. Screw jam session policy of being anti-ballad (in person jams--not here).

[ragman1]

Rag, you need to call another ballad.

I just did, earlier on. I sent Jeff a PM because I heard it played. But it was written in 1949 so he may not go for it :-)

What key did they do Georgia in?

[PickingMyEars]

F... to make a FOOL outta me.

Honestly, I could have figured it out if it wasn't the FIRST tune I played at a jam session in a year and a half.

Jitters, excitement, and the PA for the keyboard right next to me... Still felt great to play with people again. Felt like going home should feel like. Extended family, but not by blood. Something or other.

If the ballad is written by a musician, I'd say that counts--but I love ballads, so I'm a bit biased.

[John A.]

John, how was your jam session? Was it the first since C19 hit in March (February... who's counting anyway)?

Went to my first jam since COVID on father's day. Outside jam session, but the bar made it look really nice. Hell, it was my treat to myself--though I did enjoy recording some music with my tot, she's quite the little drummer!

My playing was RUSTY, but it felt AMAZING to play with REAL people!

Note to self, learn Georgia... A horn player called it and it wasn't in the book... Yeah, I looked dumb not knowing it.

You should all come to Seattle. We got us some fine musicians in these parts. Some of whom you already know on the forum. Seriously, though. Just don't come in the Winter... too rainy

Rag, you need to call another ballad. You just turned Lady Bird into a Ballad. I like that. Screw jam session policy of being anti-ballad (in person jams--not here).

The jam was great. It wasn't the first since lockdown for me. This particular jam originated several years ago in a local restaurant. Last summer, we moved it outdoors to a neighborhood park. We restarted outdoors earlier this spring (weather permitting), and then added another session at a (different) local restaurant once restaurant capacity restrictions were lifted a few weeks ago. I also had a semi-regular (outdoor) restaurant guitar duo gig last summer and fall with a friend (with whom I also get together occasionally), and have had a few house jams. So apart from taking performing off for the winter, I've had an OK amount of playing, and I'm not too rusty. Unfortunately, my day job is ramping up going back to the office, and I may not be able to keep doing the outdoor jam.

[rpjazzguitar]

This one has a backing track.

[PickingMyEars]

Very NICE phrasing on that last take, RP. Caught me by surprise as you went into the solo.

Bluesy. Syncopated. Lines started in places that push the melodic phrase. You let the phrases breath, as Peter Bernstein would say. All stuff that makes up the best of bop be and bop hard.

[wzpgsr]

Back in the saddle after a week or so off. My takes tonight were not good, but hoping I can post something tomorrow night after a bit more sheddin'.

[TOMMO]

Swingin' take, rp and I dig your placement of rests.