JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 20) - Afternoon In Paris

[John A.]

I appreciate your feedback, I know what you mean. When I have time to think it over and come up with ideas I have a nice take. The second This I Dig of you take felt good to me but the first one, much like this AiP were lacking. It seems to be the case when I just freely improvise without thinking about it versus taking the time to put ideas and themes forward the free improv always suffers. I want to be able to just come up with great stuff on the spot but I guess that’s more elusive than one would think. What would be the answer, learning licks? I’ve been in the process of practicing arpeggios (M, m, V7, and. m7b5) in different keys as Reg had suggested. I found they give me nice escape routes when I get stuck in an upper register but so far they’re not helping my overall creative process for improvising. I’ve been very resistant to learning lines because they’re already someone else’s.

Practicing arpeggios is good advice. I have some practice exercises for this built around harmonized scales. I used to be pretty diligent about it. Not so much anymore, but I have a decent foundation for being able to stay with changes. As you say, arpeggios gives you escape routes. If you don't know what to play, you can always play a triad (and the triad above or below it, and flat the 3 or the 7 ...)

I don't exactly practice licks, but there are patterns and devices that I trot out regularly, and I try to expand on my supply of these. I've never tried to lay this out in an organized way, so I don't quite know how to describe it.

I have done a little transcribing (much less than I should), and I have spent a fair amount of time trying to copy a few players' phrasing. I think it would probably not be a bad idea for you to do some of this. Wynton Kelly's solo on Freddie Freeloader is a perfect lesson in swing and less-is-more, and it's worth trying to cop some of it.

[steve burchfield]

When I was a music student in Boston I got to attend a concert at Harvard with John Lewis and Mariam Mcpartland. It is a treasured memory. I believe Mariam had a show on PBS radio about jazz piano that was excellent. They dont make em like that anymore.

[PickingMyEars]

Didn't see this on our thread:

Beautiful, if I say so myself.

Check out that Eric Dolphy alto solo... Never heard him play quite like that on someone else's composition before, at least on alto.

And the build that John Lewis creates...

What a cat!

[John A.]

Her name is Marian (not Mariam) McPa (oops)rtland.

[wzpgsr]

Her name is Marian (not Mariam) McParland.

Getting warmer....

[Triple_Jazz]

Thank for the kind words.

As far as the chords go, I hope this isn't too much information:.

Wow this is tremendous, thank you !!

[ragman1]

[lawson-stone]

Work and family stuff has made it nearly impossible to do anything with this. I haven't learned the head, but have tried to at least make sure I can play the changes.

The instructions to be "not square" pretty much almost eliminated me from this thread. I'm stuck at "square" and actually, a lot of what passes for "hip" just strikes me as over-distorted cacophony, so I am okay with being "square" I guess. Still, made me wonder if I should contribute.

Insights and advice are welcome. Every post is a cry for help.

[mr. beaumont]

Distorted to be hip? Nah. Jimmy Raney was as hip as it ever got and he was a clean machine. So was Grant Green...Kenny Burrell...you ain't gotta be outside to be hip.

Hip, of course is a state of mind. You're swinging. Nothing is corny if it swings. (Emily Remler said that. She was hip as all get out)

My statement was regarding the general feel of this tune. Its a midtempo tune, which are deceptive...you either got to sit back and get those 8ths super confident and in pocket, or go double time to get at some faster stuff...and double time on a tune cruising at 140 ain't so mid tempo anymore!

Green, BTW, was the absolute MASTER of midtempo.

Y'all did a good job...im going to pop back for a closer listen tonight.

And I have a real treat planned for the next two weeks

[PickingMyEars]

A real treat?

Cake?

I like dessert treats

[mr. beaumont]

A real treat?

Cake?

I like dessert treats

Better than sweets good. Chicken wings and beer good.

[rpjazzguitar]

Work and family stuff has made it nearly impossible to do anything with this. I haven't learned the head, but have tried to at least make sure I can play the changes.

The instructions to be "not square" pretty much almost eliminated me from this thread. I'm stuck at "square" and actually, a lot of what passes for "hip" just strikes me as over-distorted cacophony, so I am okay with being "square" I guess. Still, made me wonder if I should contribute.

Insights and advice are welcome. Every post is a cry for help.

You're doing fine IMO. The ideas are melodic. Time is laid back. Feel is relaxed. You make the music in your heart. Some people will think it's square, others won't. I don't think that's a fair test. My main test is whether people are unconciously tapping their feet. If they're doing that, I'm happy. I have another test which is whether the notes I played are the ones I wanted to play. Keep 'em coming.

[John A.]

... and actually, a lot of what passes for "hip" just strikes me as over-distorted cacophony, so I am okay with being "square" I guess.

If the finger is pointed at me here ... my distorted cacaphony was not intended to say "I'm hip, you're not" (I thought I do not ever have). I was just trying something for the sake of experiment, in keeping with what I took Jeff's admonition to mean (i.e, don't be lulled by the easy tempo and straightforward changes into a routine and boring effort).

Still, made me wonder if I should contribute.

Insights and advice are welcome. Every post is a cry for help.

I don't think you need much help here. Shedding it a bit more would make you feel more confident, but you've got the changes down. In terms of hip vs square, I think you handled the turnarounds very hiply, for instance, at around 1:35 you do something with enclosures, and then right after some side-slipping that definitely meet the "hip test". Overall, that's a really good solo.

[lawson-stone]

You're doing fine IMO. The ideas are melodic. Time is laid back. Feel is relaxed. You make the music in your heart. Some people will think it's square, others won't. I don't think that's a fair test. My main test is whether people are unconciously tapping their feet. If they're doing that, I'm happy. I have another test which is whether the notes I played are the ones I wanted to play. Keep 'em coming.

Thanks for that. I'm going through one of those "I"ll Never Be A Jazz Improviser" periods... the encouragement helps.

[lawson-stone]

If the finger is pointed at me here ... my distorted cacaphony was not intended to say "I'm hip, you're not" (I thought I do not ever have). I was just trying something for the sake of experiment, in keeping with what I took Jeff's admonition to mean (i.e, don't be lulled by the easy tempo and straightforward changes into a routine and boring effort).



I don't think you need much help here. Shedding it a bit more would make you feel more confident, but you've got the changes down. In terms of hip vs square, I think you handled the turnarounds very hiply, for instance, at around 1:35 you do something with enclosures, and then right after some side-slipping that definitely meet the "hip test". Overall, that's a really good solo.

I wasn't addressing that to you, but I can see how it could look that way and I'm sorry for that. I just meant that when challenged to do something "out there" many musicians resort to a change in the "hardware" and a kind of chaotic "outside" approach that to my ear isn't really the music. I didn't mean that about your clip, and I am sorry that it sounded like I did.

Thanks for your observations. These days, I only seem to hear my mistakes and faults, my cliched phrases, my "white bread" sort of sound. It helps when someone else can hear something good in my playing.

[John A.]

I wasn't addressing that to you, but I can see how it could look that way and I'm sorry for that. I just meant that when challenged to do something "out there" many musicians resort to a change in the "hardware" and a kind of chaotic "outside" approach that to my ear isn't really the music. I didn't mean that about your clip, and I am sorry that it sounded like I did.

Thanks for your observations. These days, I only seem to hear my mistakes and faults, my cliched phrases, my "white bread" sort of sound. It helps when someone else can hear something good in my playing.

Kumbaya.

[rpjazzguitar]

I also feel some pressure to play "hipper", meaning more outside stuff. I like it when I hear somebody else do it.

But, the music I gravitate towards doesn't usually go there.

My favorite guitarists are Jim Hall and Wes.

My favorite saxophonists are Paul Desmond, Stan Getz and Robert Kyle (an LA cat who is a stunning tenor player -- plays stirringly, and is not a heavy outside player).

I like some of the more modern guys too ... Chico Pinheiro (who can go anywhere), Toninho Horta (has his own concept of harmony) but I can't hear music the way they hear it.

So, a few years ago, closer to the end of my term as a guitarist than the beginning, I gave up on trying to play a classic jazz style, either inside or out, and just started to work on being able to play the simple stuff I can hear.

It's less aggravating. It doesn't make much difference about getting called for gigs. That's about the range of situations you can cover (knowing repertoire, reading, getting a good sound in every venue) and, most important, your time feel.

If you get a good sound with good time, nobody is going to complain that you played F ionian or lydian against Fmaj7.

[ragman1]

I usually start with a simple vanilla version, get a bit fancier, and eventually end up going coo-coo. The ones that get published are usually somewhere in between :-)

[John A.]

I also feel some pressure to play "hipper", meaning more outside stuff. I like it when I hear somebody else do it.

But, the music I gravitate towards doesn't usually go there.

My favorite guitarists are Jim Hall and Wes.

My favorite saxophonists are Paul Desmond, Stan Getz and Robert Kyle (an LA cat who is a stunning tenor player -- plays stirringly, and is not a heavy outside player).

I like some of the more modern guys too ... Chico Pinheiro (who can go anywhere), Toninho Horta (has his own concept of harmony) but I can't hear music the way they hear it.

So, a few years ago, closer to the end of my term as a guitarist than the beginning, I gave up on trying to play a classic jazz style, either inside or out, and just started to work on being able to play the simple stuff I can hear.

It's less aggravating. It doesn't make much difference about getting called for gigs. That's about the range of situations you can cover (knowing repertoire, reading, getting a good sound in every venue) and, most important, your time feel.

If you get a good sound with good time, nobody is going to complain that you played F ionian or lydian against Fmaj7.

I don't know that I want to be a super outside player, or a heavy chops-oriented player. My basic taste and sense of how to play gravitates toward bluesiness, with a touch of bebop and hard bop. But I find some of these players fascinating, and often very moving and exciting. I would like to understand what they do better, and be able to replicate it to some degree. To name some obvious examples -- Trane, Hancock, Rollins, M. Brecker, Stern -- if some of that rubs off on me I'd be pretty happy. I'd actually put Jim Hall in that bucket harmonically (though he's not a 16th note kinda guy), and even Wes or Martino to a degree. Hence, I do study it in small chunks, and trot out my version of "outside" here and there. But not out of any sort of value judgement or assertion of cool. It just sounds good to me when done right and I enjoy the challenge of going against my own grain.

[wzpgsr]

Here goes:

[docsteve]

I feel this thread is incomplete without this recording, done on an, er, afternoon in Paris by John Lewis with Sacha Distel on guitar, who went on to become a celebrated chansonnier. Barney Wilen on tenor, only 19 at the time and sounding like a young Dexter.

The rhythm section is great, too - either Kenny Clark or Connie Kay on drums, and Pierre Michelot or Percy Heath on bass.

I found this album, on, again, an afternoon in Paris in a shop specialising in Jazz records. I should've bought it, but I thought there's always Apple Music and YouTube. Still, nothing like the old vinyl... Got others instead.

[ragman1]

I would like to understand what they do better, and be able to replicate it to some degree

There's a sort of mystique around playing outside or doing outside sounds. That mystique can be broken very easily because there are basic 'rules' that apply. If one knows them it stops being that difficult.

If you find a good transcription by one of your favorite players not all of it is outside, quite the contrary. Go along till you find an outside sound that grabs your ear and look at the transcription. See what they're doing.

It's not a question of copying and imitation, it's a question of getting the principle and applying it yourself.

For example, we all know about the altered scale, which is the melodic minor a half-step up from the root of the dominant - i.e. G7alt = Ab mel m. So if you want an outside sound there play some notes from that. Or subbing a dominant with its tritone... etc, etc.

It's really not that hard once you get the idea. But, of course, when we're listening to very experienced pro players it's much more about how they're doing it than what they're doing.

[ragman1]

For example, here's a Sonny Rollins transcription.

The first outside sound of any note is at 0.39 over the Am/D7. After the D7 is a Gm. The minor 2-5 would be Am7b5-D7b9, right? But the background's just playing an ordinary Am-D7. Playing the m7b5 makes it sound out. But he's also put in the natural B over the D7, which is the 13.

So instead of playing simply Am - D7, you've got Am7b5 - D13*.

Then at 1.05, over the F7 there are notes from F#m, giving the alt flavour.

Then at 1.28, over the BbM7, there's an outside sound. He's either continued the F7 alt (F#m) idea or slide-slipped up to B before resolving it to Bb.

And so forth. All standard procedure (he said glibly)

* I tend to minorize a lot so I'd play Cm - Bm (to Gm) there. Simple.

[lawson-stone]

So here's another run at this, thinking maybe the Telecaster will stir some different ideas?

Observations, insights, advice, always welcome.

[docsteve]

So here's another run at this, thinking maybe the Telecaster will stir some different ideas?

Observations, insights, advice, always welcome.

Nice, it is evident that you put in some time. The tele gets a nice fat sound, too. I like the chords in the bridge.

Unfortunately, you are rushing at times - but then I‘m guilty of that myself, so who am I to bicker.


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