Bebop language IS modern language

[Dutchbopper]

Bebop is dated? Not according to Mr. McBride.

DB

[Cunamara]

Bebop is the core language of jazz, everything "modern" is an outgrowth of that in one way or another.

[citizenk74]

I think he makes a good point. And plays like a wizard!

[2bornot2bop]

He’s correct. Anything who thinks otherwise can’t play bebop effectively. Bebop is the language of so much that came after it. In a sense it’s the foundation of some of the best music ever created.

[MarkRhodes]

There is a difference between saying (as Christian McBride does) that bebop language is STILL modern language and saying bebop language IS modern language. The latter is not what Christian claims.

[vsaumarez]

I'm not sure any jazz is dated. It's a fairly timeless medium. There are still many trad bands around. Some players stay with bebop. Other moved away from the frenetic and demanding style, which gave rise to the 'cool' period. Others move backwards and forwards in time. Some find their thing in avant garde. "Modern" is a relative term and as far as I am aware, there was no jazz movement called "Modern Jazz". So, today it could be thought of as the current crop of innovators who are pushing the boundaries. Having said that, there is no doubting bebop not only pushed the boundaries in a big way, it taught us that boundaries are there to be pushed.

[christianm77]

Yeah. Everyone learns bop so it’s no surprise.

Its not just dudes in suits playing Parker tunes; there’s so much bop in fusion music, any contemporary stuff. Even Ornette’s music was grounded in a bop sensibility.

Maybe it’s time to dethrone bebop and do something else? (Assumes cover.)

[princeplanet]

Yeah. Everyone learns bop so it’s no surprise.

Its not just dudes in suits playing Parker tunes; there’s so much bop in fusion music, any contemporary stuff. Even Ornette’s music was grounded in a bop sensibility.

Maybe it’s time to dethrone bebop and do something else? (Assumes cover.)

Yeah, I think everyone is aware of Bop, and can kinda Bop a little, but I don't hear many players on any instrument that sound great at it. Most seem to mix it in with other stuff, which is probably why it's still around in any form...?

[MarkRhodes]

Maybe it’s time to dethrone bebop and do something else? (Assumes cover.)

Miles and Herbie and Wayne and Trane and Wes and Horace Silver and Jimmy Smith and Benson et al already did that. They could all play bebop but it wasn't enough for them. They had a broader vision. Thank God. People can play only bebop if they want; people can never play bebop if they want; people can play some of it and some of other things too if they want.

I mean, the most often chosen 'greatest jazz album' is "Kind Of Blue", which isn't bebop at all. Is "A Love Supreme" bebop? Is "Better Get It In Your Soul" bebop? Is "West Coast Blues" or "Road Song" bebop? Is "Moanin'" bebop? Is "Song For My Father" bebop? Is "Maiden Voyage" bebop? "Impressions"? "Take Five"?

[citizenk74]

I'm not sure any jazz is dated. It's a fairly timeless medium. There are still many trad bands around. Some players stay with bebop. Other moved away from the frenetic and demanding style, which gave rise to the 'cool' period. Others move backwards and forwards in time. Some find their thing in avant garde. "Modern" is a relative term and as far as I am aware, there was no jazz movement called "Modern Jazz". So, today it could be thought of as the current crop of innovators who are pushing the boundaries. Having said that, there is no doubting bebop not only pushed the boundaries in a big way, it taught us that boundaries are there to be pushed.

"I got no kick against modern jazz
As long as they don't play it too darn fast
And lose the beauty of the melody
And make it sound just like a symphony"

- Chuck Berry - Cultural Observer

[Dutchbopper]

Miles and Herbie and Wayne and Trane and Wes and Horace Silver and Jimmy Smith and Benson et al already did that. They could all play bebop but it wasn't enough for them. They had a broader vision. Thank God. People can play only bebop if they want; people can never play bebop if they want; people can play some of it and some of other things too if they want.

I mean, the most often chosen 'greatest jazz album' is "Kind Of Blue", which isn't bebop at all. Is "A Love Supreme" bebop? Is "Better Get It In Your Soul" bebop? Is "West Coast Blues" or "Road Song" bebop? Is "Moanin'" bebop? Is "Song For My Father" bebop? Is "Maiden Voyage" bebop? "Impressions"? "Take Five"?

McBride was not talking about tunes. He was talking about the improvisational language. Most of the solos on the tunes you mention are played largely in a bop style. That’s what he is talking about. The solos on Kind of Blue are all deeply rooted in bebop. Everything is.

DB


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[christianm77]

Miles and Herbie and Wayne and Trane and Wes and Horace Silver and Jimmy Smith and Benson et al already did that. They could all play bebop but it wasn't enough for them. They had a broader vision. Thank God. People can play only bebop if they want; people can never play bebop if they want; people can play some of it and some of other things too if they want.

I mean, the most often chosen 'greatest jazz album' is "Kind Of Blue", which isn't bebop at all. Is "A Love Supreme" bebop? Is "Better Get It In Your Soul" bebop? Is "West Coast Blues" or "Road Song" bebop? Is "Moanin'" bebop? Is "Song For My Father" bebop? Is "Maiden Voyage" bebop? "Impressions"? "Take Five"?

Yes it’s all bop to some extent, because modal concept nonwithstanding the way the phrasing and rhythm section are oriented are completely influenced by bop.... also tons of bop lines. Coltrane plays loads of that stuff. Even the sound of instruments - lack of heavy vibrato etc.

you can say it’s not exclusively bop, of course, but bop is always there.

Bop isn’t ii v Is.

Not that I have the foggiest idea what would replace it.

[christianm77]

I think until you spend some time with earlier jazz it’s hard to appreciate just how much of an evolutionary bottleneck bop was.

[2bornot2bop]

Yes it’s all bop to some extent, because modal concept nonwithstanding the way the phrasing and rhythm section are oriented are completely influenced by bop.... also tons of bop lines. Coltrane plays loads of that stuff. Even the sound of instruments - lack of heavy vibrato etc.

you can say it’s not exclusively bop, of course, but bop is always there.

Bop isn’t ii v Is.

Not that I have the foggiest idea what would replace it.

Don’t forget Cannonball, also on KOB, was straight out of the hard bop era. Cannonball blended bebop, soul, RnB, and kept the music moving forward much like Miles did. Cannonball never forgot his Bop roots.

[docsteve]

Not that I have the foggiest idea what would replace it.

What, like Rock‘n‘Roll?
(Behind sofa)


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[guido5]

The "cool" language of Tristano, Marsh, Konitz, Bauer etc is a true alternative language to Bop. It is unfortunate how thoroughly overlooked it was (and is).

[christianm77]

What, like Rock‘n‘Roll?
(Behind sofa)


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Neo-soul and Dilla beats. My mistake.

[MarkRhodes]

McBride was not talking about tunes. He was talking about the improvisational language. Most of the solos on the tunes you mention are played largely in a bop style. That’s what he is talking about. The solos on Kind of Blue are all deeply rooted in bebop. Everything is.

DB

This point of view gives bebop way too much credit. (Think of someone saying that anything played with syncopation is ragtime or anything that swings is Swing and nothing else. "Most" and "largely" are the giveaways in your comment. You know what you have claimed does not hold.
Pat Martino is not a bebop guitarist and neither was Herb Ellis. Neither is George Benson (though he can play in that style; he can play in several others as well.) Wes Montgomery was not a bebop guitarist. George and Wes took a lot of flak for making records that reached a mass audience.

Bebop was originally conceived as art music, for aficionados, in contrast to swing, which appealed to the masses. Hard-bop was a move AWAY from that bop attitude back to music with broader appeal, hence the gospel, blues, and soul elements. (I think there are more hard bop standards that are not contrafacts than there are bebop standards. Most bebop standards are written over blues and swing changes.

The albums in the Miles Davis catalog that are classified as bebop are relatively few and "Kind of Blue" is not among them.

[MarkRhodes]

Don’t forget Cannonball, also on KOB, was straight out of the hard bop era. Cannonball blended bebop, soul, RnB, and kept the music moving forward much like Miles did. Cannonball never forgot his Bop roots.

I love Cannonball's playing. Hard bop, indeed: gospel, blues (which was part of swing-era jazz and bebop as well) and soul. I think this is why there are so many great hard bop heads. "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy," "Dat Dere", "Sack O' Woe", "Moanin", "The Preacher", "Walkin'", "The Sidewinder", "The Blues Walk," "Sugar," "Four On Six", "Blue Train", "Work Song" and "West Coast Blues" are simpler than "Donna Lee" but they are all more appealing.

Kenny Burrell's "Midnight Blue" makes most short lists of classic jazz guitar albums but it is not a bebop album.

[John A.]

I think until you spend some time with earlier jazz it’s hard to appreciate just how much of an evolutionary bottleneck bop was.

Bottleneck implies (in US idiom anyway), a narrowing that causes congestion and getting stuck in an otherwise fluid situation. Is that the analogy you're going for?

John

[Lobomov]

Bottleneck implies (in US idiom anyway), a narrowing that causes congestion and getting stuck in an otherwise fluid situation. Is that the analogy you're going for?

John

Yeah also in European idiom ... Sounds like the claim is that bebop clogged everything up and all progress came to an end.


And here we are in 2020 still talking about Charlie Parker, Barry Harris and Bud Powell .. and If a 21st century guitar player ever gets mentioned it's Pasquale Grasso for how well he channels Bud Powell ???

[Dutchbopper]

This point of view gives bebop way too much credit. (Think of someone saying that anything played with syncopation is ragtime or anything that swings is Swing and nothing else. "Most" and "largely" are the giveaways in your comment. You know what you have claimed does not hold.
Pat Martino is not a bebop guitarist and neither was Herb Ellis. Neither is George Benson (though he can play in that style; he can play in several others as well.) Wes Montgomery was not a bebop guitarist. George and Wes took a lot of flak for making records that reached a mass audience.

Bebop was originally conceived as art music, for aficionados, in contrast to swing, which appealed to the masses. Hard-bop was a move AWAY from that bop attitude back to music with broader appeal, hence the gospel, blues, and soul elements. (I think there are more hard bop standards that are not contrafacts than there are bebop standards. Most bebop standards are written over blues and swing changes.

The albums in the Miles Davis catalog that are classified as bebop are relatively few and "Kind of Blue" is not among them.

Hard bop is just a sub genre. Herb played bebop. There are several lists of bebop guitarists on WIKI that include Herb, Pat and Wes. Just type in bebop guitarists. George is always playing in the bop idiom, even on funk grooves and pop. The music genre may be labelled, the impro is often bop related or pure bop.

But I have no desire to be right here so I rest my case.

DB


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[grahambop]

I don’t think in terms of the narrow definitions or labels mentioned above. To me ‘bop’ is a practical term and means just about any kind of jazz which swings (or has a latin groove), has improvised lines with predominantly (but not always) 8th notes, and largely respects the chord harmonies. So Wes and Kenny play bop as far as I’m concerned. Even Coleman Hawkins is a kind of early bop player in my book.

To me it’s the core language you need to learn to play just about anything in jazz. Even guys who play mainstream swing stuff e.g. Scott Hamilton or Jon-Erik Kelso seem to play with a certain amount of bop sensibility somehow.

Miles’ 60s post-bop quintet is to me bop without sticking so much to chord changes (sometimes abandoning them). But you can tell those guys had all mastered bop first.

I always thought one of the problems with Wynton Marsalis when he first came out was that he had obviously learned all the Miles post-bop stuff without learning the bop stuff first, and it kind of showed somehow, however brilliant his playing was.

[Dutchbopper]

I don’t think in terms of the narrow definitions or labels mentioned above. To me ‘bop’ is a practical term and means just about any kind of jazz which swings (or has a latin groove), has improvised lines with predominantly (but not always) 8th notes, and largely respects the chord harmonies. So Wes and Kenny play bop as far as I’m concerned. Even Coleman Hawkins is a kind of early bop player in my book.

To me it’s the core language you need to learn to play just about anything in jazz. Even guys who play mainstream swing stuff e.g. Scott Hamilton or Jon-Erik Kelso seem to play with a certain amount of bop sensibility somehow.

Miles’ 60s post-bop quintet is to me bop without sticking so much to chord changes (sometimes abandoning them). But you can tell those guys had all mastered bop first.

I always thought one of the problems with Wynton Marsalis when he first came out was that he had obviously learned all the Miles post-bop stuff without learning the bop stuff first, and it kind of showed somehow, however brilliant his playing was.

Kind of what I was thinking but you say it better. Thanks.

DB

[christianm77]

This point of view gives bebop way too much credit. (Think of someone saying that anything played with syncopation is ragtime or anything that swings is Swing and nothing else. "Most" and "largely" are the giveaways in your comment. You know what you have claimed does not hold.
Pat Martino is not a bebop guitarist and neither was Herb Ellis. Neither is George Benson (though he can play in that style; he can play in several others as well.) Wes Montgomery was not a bebop guitarist. George and Wes took a lot of flak for making records that reached a mass audience.

Bebop was originally conceived as art music, for aficionados, in contrast to swing, which appealed to the masses. Hard-bop was a move AWAY from that bop attitude back to music with broader appeal, hence the gospel, blues, and soul elements. (I think there are more hard bop standards that are not contrafacts than there are bebop standards. Most bebop standards are written over blues and swing changes.

The albums in the Miles Davis catalog that are classified as bebop are relatively few and "Kind of Blue" is not among them.

There's a few historical myths/simplifications here, sorry. The truth is more complex.

But it is certainly true that basically everyone from around 1950-1960 played a common practice principally influenced by Charlie Parker. The harmonic note choices and melodic approaches and so on seem remarkably common to all players. It's not to say they all sounded alike; but they had a similar way of going about things and that was rooted in Bird. The 60s represented a diversification of the music, but they'd all gone through this period.

I think you really need to go to the music itself, to grasp why Christian McBride says what he says. I also think you have to have some knowledge of pre war jazz, to really appreciate how everything was shaped by the playing of pretty much one man.

I'll just take one of your examples; Wes was 100% a bop guitarist. In that he played bop professionally with some of its leading lights. That seems to make him more a bop guitarist than any of us lol. Unless you have some better definition, of course.

Wes later adoption of - modes, pop tunes, soul-jazz etc etc - doesn't alter that. Everyone who came up in his generation went through the bottleneck of Bird. No-one of that generation was playing like Coleman Hawkins, Cootie Williams, Louis Armstrong etc etc - that wasn't happening. OTOH bop became the basic lingua franca both in NYC and in the colleges.

So - it's also true of the fusion players and so on. And they were later. It's a formative influence on the way people play different vocabulary.

So yeah, McBride is right, if you ask me. Funny that. Almost like he knows what he's talking about or something?