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05-11-2020 06:15 PM
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I knew a woman who studied piano at the Moscow Conservatory. I gave her an Art Tatum disc. Thirty seconds after putting it on she said, "He is a virtuoso." But, on reflection, I never played any Jim Hall for her. So maybe you were right all along.
Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
It may be easy for the favored few, but not everyone who sacrifices life for a (supposed or actual) vocation becomes a luminary.
Just some musicians, singers, Renaissance violin makers - and artists of all other sorts - had or have the essential qualities of what is called Shibui or Shibusa in Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibui ).
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Exactly, even 50,000 hours is no guarantee one will attain "effortless mastery". Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
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The difficult part of jazz is being able to draw from others, integrate that, get your technique down and yet still..... be uniquely you!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Learning to improvise and all the things it takes to be able to do it is difficult and requires time and effort, but having reached a point where I could do it, the actual performance of it has felt pretty effortless and easy compared to the process of getting there. The point of working so hard for so long through the difficulties was to overcome them, internalize what was discovered, integrate what was grasped, and relax on stage so that the primary effort of performance comprises almost entirely joyful intuitive musical judgement selecting the most appropriate things to play among the hard fought acquired musical possibilities.
I don't want anyone to ever imagine that what I do in performance is difficult. It is good when people think your performance ability "makes it look easy", not good when it exudes a sense of difficulty, struggling, missing, having problems, or failing... people don't like to hear that and it is not something a musician should strive for or consider his due from his audience, other musicians, or non-jazz musicians.
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I want to hear that recording!
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I often quote Mark Twain..."...quittting smoking is easy..I have done it a hundred times.." Originally Posted by pauln
Making it LOOK easy is part of it..making it SOUND easy is the other part...like trying to play a few "easy" Albert King licks..
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Yes, but what you're really suggesting is about ego. Ego isn't music. People appreciate what they're going to appreciate. We have no control over what anyone appreciates. Let it go and play your music your way I say. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Let's face it, no one likes being misunderstood and no one likes being under appreciated. Rodney Dangerfield used to joke about it, but damn it, we don't get no respect!
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I would tend to agree with everything you've said. At the same time, I'd suggest that we need a certain amount of "ego" to think people would pay money to hear us. That said, I think the less we desire external validation the more likely we are to get it. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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LOL. Go on. A sticky wicket, all gone pear-shaped, has it? Irrelevant and, to paraphrase one of Miles’ most famous tunes “So What”.
Quoting, quite frankly, Mr. Shankly: “Get stuck in, lads!” I mean, I have no idea if he ever said that, but I suspect that is the classic line from many a Half-time team talk in the Changing Room.
*pats self on back for throwing some British expressions nobody around these parts has ever heard of in their lives*
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Is this the same advise you would give to all those musical acts since Whitney Houston that you said in the other thread, haven't created any good music? Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Hey, I'm not trying to punk you here, but it just appears somewhat contradictory to me.
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Steady, the Buffs. Originally Posted by NSJ
*pats self on back for throwing some British expressions nobody around these parts has ever heard of in their lives*
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Yes, well once we all turn 40, the ego gets relegated to the back seat, somewhat. We go all humble and gentle, and, almost Buddhist - like, we like to impart out wistful wisdom to those unfortunate enough to be less experienced... Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Until we've had a coupla whiskeys and maybe a spliff or two - then it's all "Oh yeah, I remember him, he was one bad motherfucker, I remember when he pulled a knife on stage once when the piano player kept playing those fuckin' #9s,, yeah, those were the days!..."
Personally, I'd like to see more attitude (ego) in our young players (stopping short of pulling knives maybe), it can bring a bit of excitement back to Jazz, which certainly would help to rejuvenate it. A loud mouth champion, preferably one that walks the talk., can really excite the people. Where's our Salvador Dali? Or Muhammad Ali? Jazz used to have them, right? Pres, Bird, Art Blakey, Jackie Mac, Mingus, and of course Miles! Read the histories, it's full of trash talking and insult slinging! Are we ashamed of it? No! We fetishize it, if anything!
Seriously, who was Jazz's last bad boy? Wynton Marsalis? Really? From 40 years ago? Tsk, tsk, tsk .....
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I agree, jazz should not be tamed.
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This thread reminded me of another Twain quote. He said it about Wagner, but I think it is what results from this sort of attitude. Jazz: "It's better than it sounds." Originally Posted by wolflen
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Non Jazz musicians cannot appreciate how difficult Jazz imrov can be...
The trouble with this premise is that it's about non-jazz musicians. I'm sure they don't appreciate it, but then there's no reason why they should; it doesn't apply to them.
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Well this isn't the case with most of my friends who are amateur musicians like myself but don't play jazz (well expect for the few 'easy' tunes (e.g. no key changes) I have shown them over the years). Originally Posted by ragman1
They clearly appreciate my knowledge of so called jazz chords, as well as key changes. As long as I "accept" (for lack of a better term), that they don't wish to go in a jazz direction we can make some nice music together playing blues and rock.
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John Zorn maybe? The problem is those past greats cast too large of a shadow and the development of young players has become institutionalized. There was that punk who caused a fuss dissing Wayne Shorter a few years back... Originally Posted by princeplanet
Yes, well once we all turn 40, the ego gets relegated to the back seat, somewhat. We go all humble and gentle, and, almost Buddhist - like, we like to impart out wistful wisdom to those unfortunate enough to be less experienced...
Until we've had a coupla whiskeys and maybe a spliff or two - then it's all "Oh yeah, I remember him, he was one bad motherfucker, I remember when he pulled a knife on stage once when the piano player kept playing those fuckin' #9s,, yeah, those were the days!..."
Personally, I'd like to see more attitude (ego) in our young players (stopping short of pulling knives maybe), it can bring a bit of excitement back to Jazz, which certainly would help to rejuvenate it. A loud mouth champion, preferably one that walks the talk., can really excite the people. Where's our Salvador Dali? Or Muhammad Ali? Jazz used to have them, right? Pres, Bird, Art Blakey, Jackie Mac, Mingus, and of course Miles! Read the histories, it's full of trash talking and insult slinging! Are we ashamed of it? No! We fetishize it, if anything!
Seriously, who was Jazz's last bad boy? Wynton Marsalis? Really? From 40 years ago? Tsk, tsk, tsk .....
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I will put on my Arrow shirt, but I don’t think that most jazz musicians improvise as much as they think they do. We run the risk of falling back on our formulas and systems for dealing with chord changes, and there is nothing wrong with continuing to refine the development of motifs over a solo on a particular tune.
There are plenty of non-jazz musicians that can hear what jazz musicians are up to. And they may not be that impressed at hearing similar licks over the V7 over and over again. As discussed in other threads, improvising over chord changes can result in something apart from improvising over a tune where the melody is the reference point.
And classical musicians put a huge amount of effort and variation (improvisation?) into the interpretation of what they play. It is more than simply playing the notes on the page.
All forms of music need the human heart and brain to be engaged to create the beauty and move us.
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Personally, I'd like to see more attitude (ego) in our young players (stopping short of pulling knives maybe), it can bring a bit of excitement back to Jazz, which certainly would help to rejuvenate it. A loud mouth champion, preferably one that walks the talk., can really excite the people. Where's our Salvador Dali? Or Muhammad Ali? Jazz used to have them, right? Pres, Bird, Art Blakey, Jackie Mac, Mingus, and of course Miles! Read the histories, it's full of trash talking and insult slinging! Are we ashamed of it? No! We fetishize it, if anything!
Seriously, who was Jazz's last bad boy? Wynton Marsalis? Really? From 40 years ago? Tsk, tsk, tsk .....
sure..add more spice..akin to some rock music attitude..but even there it has been tamed way down..you dont hear about trashing hotel rooms much now..
alot has to do with the times we live in and PC culture..say something about someone-even in a private conversation-and it get overheard/recorded and next thing
you know..are several lawyers names...
and if Wynton was considered a "bad boy" ..lord have mercy on frank zappa....
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Oh yeah, haha, that was fun for about 5 minutes. Unfortunately for him he picked the wrong target. He should listen maybe to Shorter's days with Blakey, back when they called him "Gone".... Attitude wise, Wayne was more "punk" that just about anyone, and whip smart to boot! Originally Posted by BWV
Picking on him now when way past his prime was not just lame, but kinda inexcusable...
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I would not speak about difficulty.... it is not difficult really. But in general yes.. I agree.
I keep thinking that jazz cplaying can be appriciated mostly by those who can play themselves.
'making choices' is part of jazz aesthetics... you can appreciate those choices (especially spontaneous) if you know how it works form inside...
You can appreciate risk if you really feel it is the risk
Most of non-musician jazz audience are there for the atmosphere - some kind of social stuff...
but there are also very sensitive listners who can appreciate it being non-musicians.... but to grow such an audiens the enviroment needed.
I guess there were much more of them in the 30s-50s. There were guys who sometimes could hear it better than musicians even I think...
Today it is different.
I aould not care much about it... lots of people who listen to Bach and go to the concerts regularly do not dig anything in what this music is about... they seem like looking at Bosttichelli and see at best some colours - not plot, not figuers, no perspective -- they see/hear nothing...
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I put aside the topic of 'what is really improvization' or 'if they really improvize' as well as the most ridiculous 'jazz ,usicians do not improvize as much as thhey think they do'. It was discussed many times and mostly I think from wrong perspective.
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Jazz guitar is the hardest thing I've ever tried to do. I've been at it for 56 years and I'm still learning about how difficult it is to do really well. I am confident that I can still hear something new and not realize how difficult it was for the player to accomplish.
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Artists are told that a child could have done it; dancers are mocked for supposed pretension; writers are disparaged as hacks. So it goes. Originally Posted by princeplanet
I wonder how many of the audience at the Half Note in this 1964 TV programme were listening to Lennie Tristano and his combo. Did they appreciate the difficulty and novelty of the music? They seem to be enjoying themselves, at least.
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