What Makes a Jazz Solo Musical

[lawson-stone]

Is there anywhere to hear Jimmy actually playing this?

Jimmy's 8ths were pretty even, especially earlier in his career, but he'd lay back just a little...not as much as some bluesier players, but just enough to really swing.

You kinda seem right on the beat, or even a little ahead. Makes it sound a little less relaxed...I think maybe some of the magic in Raney's playing you might be looking for.

Yes indeed. This is a Jamey Aebersold "Play-along" set and so there is a track of Jimmy playing the solo, and then a track without so you can play with the rhythm section. Somewhere I have a clip with Jimmy playing in one channel and me playing the same solo in the other. There you could hear his solo. I just can't but my hand on that clip, though.

[lawson-stone]

Is there anywhere to hear Jimmy actually playing this?

Jimmy's 8ths were pretty even, especially earlier in his career, but he'd lay back just a little...not as much as some bluesier players, but just enough to really swing.

You kinda seem right on the beat, or even a little ahead. Makes it sound a little less relaxed...I think maybe some of the magic in Raney's playing you might be looking for.

Sent you a PM with a couple links.

You're right about the beat. I keep trying to "swing" in the traditional sense, but Jimmy players rather even 8ths and gets his swing feel from Some Other Place which I need to find.

[grahambop]

Doesn’t Jimmy talk about this in the introduction of the book? I seem to recall he says something like the ‘modern’ approach is to play almost even eighths, so the ‘swing’ has to come from other elements, e.g. dynamics, accenting certain notes, (I think).

[lawson-stone]

Doesn’t Jimmy talk about this in the introduction of the book? I seem to recall he says something like the ‘modern’ approach is to play almost even eighths, so the ‘swing’ has to come from other elements, e.g. dynamics, accenting certain notes, (I think).

Here's the preface:

Raney-Preface.pdf

[grahambop]

Found my copy, I was thinking of this:

[rintincop]

3/8 3/8/2/8 = Tresillo (the primary African rhythm) or the New Orleans clave.

[rintincop]

My advice is lay back behind the pulse a tiny bit and also accent "+" more ( pizazz) .
It sounds a little rushed and too evenly accented to me.
And accent peak notes. Avoid letting notes ring together. Don't let each phrase to run into the next, try to make each phrase sound like it takes a tiny breath before the next phrase, otherwise it can sound like run on sentances.

[christianm77]

What makes a jazz solo musical? When it’s conceived as a composition - instant or premeditated to some extent - that fits into an overall performance of music and not simply getting through the changes, or flexing ones chops....

[christianm77]

Sent you a PM with a couple links.

You're right about the beat. I keep trying to "swing" in the traditional sense, but Jimmy players rather even 8ths and gets his swing feel from Some Other Place which I need to find.

It’s the placement of the notes. Raney plays behind the beat, but in such a way that it locks in with the drummers upbeat.

Try this - play or sing swing just the ‘ands’. This should sound a bit Louis Prima if it’s done right
Now against a medium tempo swing drum track (such as one of the loops on Drum Genius) play a scale as straight as you can accenting the ‘ands’.

It should feel really stretchy and weird. Almost against the beat. Post it up here and we’ll be able to say if it’s right, but you may be able to tell yourself.

Then move to one phrase at a time from the solo, doing the same thing.

EDIT: a few people have said this.... agreement on JGO! Who’d have thunk it?

And obviously that’s the feel side of it (micro rhythm) but a few people have also opined on the polymetric nature of Jimmy’s phrasing, with lots of irregular accents. I believe there a masterclass floating around in the interwebs?

[grahambop]

There is of course a video of Jimmy playing Out of Nowhere:

[grahambop]

In that video it seemed to me that his first chorus still retained a lot of the melody. But his final chorus had a lot more complexity, more notes etc. So that’s perhaps one way to build a good solo, i.e. progress gradually from ‘simple’ to ‘complex’. I know I try and do that a bit.

[ragman1]

And, although it's not a set-in-stone rule, low to high.

[John A.]

Lawson, it seems to me that focusing so much on trying to execute Raney's solos with Raney's feel is somewhat at cross purposes with making your own playing more musical. Because you know exactly what's coming, a tendency to rush or play ahead of the beat is baked into the performance.

Plus, there's this perverse thing that can happen when one does something over and over again: the places that give you trouble start giving you more trouble. You anticipate the tricky bit, and you undermine yourself and flub it. It's difficult to break out of that vicious circle.

IMHO, time to stop transcribing and start playing.

John

[lawson-stone]

In that video it seemed to me that his first chorus still retained a lot of the melody. But his final chorus had a lot more complexity, more notes etc. So that’s perhaps one way to build a good solo, i.e. progress gradually from ‘simple’ to ‘complex’. I know I try and do that a bit.

All the solos in that Aebersold volume feature a few cites of the melody early on and then it moves on to other concepts.

[lawson-stone]

Lawson, it seems to me that focusing so much on trying to execute Raney's solos with Raney's feel is somewhat at cross purposes with making your own playing more musical. Because you know exactly what's coming, a tendency to rush or play ahead of the beat is baked into the performance.

Plus, there's this perverse thing that can happen when one does something over and over again: the places that give you trouble start giving you more trouble. You anticipate the tricky bit, and you undermine yourself and flub it. It's difficult to break out of that vicious circle.

IMHO, time to stop transcribing and start playing.

John

Actually I don't think "transcribing" is different from "playing." Once I learn a solo, I enjoy trying to "play" it my own way. But of course, "my own way" is still lacking in a lot of jazz feel, and just as note-choice is important and needs to be assimilated, so also does jazz-feel. I feel like playing these solos, which I do all the time for fun now, isn't different from "playing." I don't gig, so I don't feel any pressure, so I'm trying to allow the muscle-mental-musical memory to do it's work as I internalize the ideas. Maybe it's wrong, but my first rule is "have fun." Which I am!

[christianm77]

Lawson, it seems to me that focusing so much on trying to execute Raney's solos with Raney's feel is somewhat at cross purposes with making your own playing more musical. Because you know exactly what's coming, a tendency to rush or play ahead of the beat is baked into the performance.

Plus, there's this perverse thing that can happen when one does something over and over again: the places that give you trouble start giving you more trouble. You anticipate the tricky bit, and you undermine yourself and flub it. It's difficult to break out of that vicious circle.

IMHO, time to stop transcribing and start playing.

John

That’s an interesting post. I’m not sure I agree with it. But I’m also not sure I disagree with it.

[John A.]

Actually I don't think "transcribing" is different from "playing." Once I learn a solo, I enjoy trying to "play" it my own way. But of course, "my own way" is still lacking in a lot of jazz feel, and just as note-choice is important and needs to be assimilated, so also does jazz-feel. I feel like playing these solos, which I do all the time for fun now, isn't different from "playing." I don't gig, so I don't feel any pressure, so I'm trying to allow the muscle-mental-musical memory to do it's work as I internalize the ideas. Maybe it's wrong, but my first rule is "have fun." Which I am!

"Have fun" is a great rule, and I wouldn't try to talk you out of it. But ...

John

[John A.]

That’s an interesting post. I’m not sure I agree with it. But I’m also not sure I disagree with it.

I think that about covers it.

John

[Roberoo]

Emotion and sentiment are a dominant part of a great solo. No one seems to have mentioned that but that is what great music is about. It is not about executing pre-planned riffs over particular changes. No one cares about that shit except maybe other musicians...maybe. Keith Jarrett once commented that a good solo is the sound of "someone working on themselves" meaning they are having an inner struggle to deliver a lyrical and emotional statement that maybe they don't fully understand. We all know when this happens in a live performance. We are moved emotionally.

Ask yourself, when you play are you trying to move the audience and make an emotional musical statement or are you trying to fit riffs over chords in a logical manner? If you are doing the latter you will never play a musical solo...it will just be some notes strung together maybe with some logic but it won't move people to care...


'

[mr. beaumont]

Emotion's overrated. You feeling emotional over "Out of Nowhere?"

Have fun and play something that fits the music. If you're sad, yeah, you can play sad...but don't try to make people "feel something." Definitely don't try to make people feel something you aren't.

Cheesy old tune like this, just play the shit out of it, swing hard, and you know what? Itll make anyone smart enough to listen happy. Happiness is contagious.

[ccroft]

I like someone who can make it real. Some conviction. Some connection. Strength. As was mentioned: intent. That might be the emotion Roberoo was talking about.

You can really see this in Classical. If you can't make it real it really sucks. Classical is like Shakespearean acting in that way. I saw Horowitz's last concert at Carnegie. It was solid, musical and real even at like... 85 or something.

Jimmy's got that. This music is part of his life. It's who he is/was. All he had to do was be himself.

[Bflat233]

... what makes an improvised solo "musical" and even pretty, even beautiful? ... I would really like to nail down just what makes it work, and figure out how to get more of that into my own playing.

Lawson,

I may have misunderstood your question. Are you looking to play this solo better? Or are you seeking to understand the art and the science inherent in the transcription and improvise your own solos?

David

[lawson-stone]

Emotion and sentiment are a dominant part of a great solo. No one seems to have mentioned that but that is what great music is about. It is not about executing pre-planned riffs over particular changes. No one cares about that shit except maybe other musicians...maybe. Keith Jarrett once commented that a good solo is the sound of "someone working on themselves" meaning they are having an inner struggle to deliver a lyrical and emotional statement that maybe they don't fully understand. We all know when this happens in a live performance. We are moved emotionally.

Ask yourself, when you play are you trying to move the audience and make an emotional musical statement or are you trying to fit riffs over chords in a logical manner? If you are doing the latter you will never play a musical solo...it will just be some notes strung together maybe with some logic but it won't move people to care...


'

I understand the point, but this is stated in a manner that is so dogmatic it almost sounds like fundamentalism, but in music rather than religion. There are skills someone has to have. Someone who stands up with all kinds of emotion and can only blurt out 5 or 6 random words won't move an audience. I study and learn this stuff so that I'll have a way to express what I feel to audiences. Great feeling+poor skills=No Real Music. Poor Feeling+Great Skills=No Real Music. We need both.

[lawson-stone]

Lawson,

I may have misunderstood your question. Are you looking to play this solo better? Or are you seeking to understand the art and the science inherent in the transcription and improvise your own solos?

David

Like I said in the OP, I've learned a lot of these solos and I am just blown away by their overall coherence, inner movement, logic, and beauty. I picked one to play as an example, it has the features I like. But I could have chosen any of the other solos, this just happens to be my favorite. I wasn't really asking "How can I play this better" though I appreciate the great advice I've heard here. I'm really asking what is it about the lines, the phrases, the phrasING, the movement that is so musically appealing. Jimmy composed this solo, and all the solos in the book I'm using, to teach students how to put together a good bop solo. So I'm trying to extract as much learning as I can from it.

[Bflat233]

OK, then, I think the answer is in the woodshed; there's no way around it. I started down the road to improvising in earnest just over two years ago, and every once in awhile, I hear myself play a good one. I think you're well ahead of me, having played all those transcribed solos. You have the tones and the tempos in your ears, so you're going to recognize the sound you are looking for when you hear it.

David