Autumn Leaves – How to handle the III VI II V smoothly?

[buduranus2]

I've progressed to the point that I'm able to improvise over some simple structures, Autumn Leaves being one of them. The bump in the road for me is the relatively quick III VI II V that's shown as Emi7 Eb7 Dmi7 Db7. I treat the Eb7 and Db7 as tritonal substitutions of A7 and G7. The challenge for me at the moment isn't finding something suitable to play, but rather being able to play fast enough to keep up. One shortcut I've tried is to play A phrygian dominant over the Emi7 Eb7. Even though this isn't technically correct the changes happen quickly enough that I can kind of get away with it. Same with the Dmi7 Db7, although I'm less confident with phrygian dominant there (seems to work but then again maybe not quite.) Any strategies or guidance are greatly appreciated.

[Rob MacKillop]

There's no requirement to play all the notes in the scales and arpeggios of choice, or even to play over every chord. Counterintuitively, perhaps, the E minor blues scale fits over those bars beautifully. You could also restrict yourself to, say, the top two strings, playing two-note arpeggios. It's not usually played a breakneck speed, so you should manage that. But the best advice I can give you is to play those chords over and over in a loop, and just sing you heart out. When you get something you like, figure it out on the guitar without thinking at all of scales and arpeggios. Same for the whole song.

[buduranus2]

Thanks for your recommendations. The two-note arpeggios are a good place to start. This suggestion reminded me of Grant Green playing three-note arps in a similar sequence. I've actually been practicing to a loop. Sounds good at slow speeds but not at all clean at brighter tempos. I'll try the Emi blues scale. Had never considered that.

[christianm77]

It’s the same question as ‘how do I play rhythm changes’, btw

Turnarounds all sub for each other

The simplest is I

The second simplest is I V

Jazz players should collect turnarounds..

[buduranus2]

It’s the same question as ‘how do I play rhythm changes’, btw

Turnarounds all sub for each other

The simplest is I

The second simplest is I V

Jazz players should collect turnarounds..

Yes, very well stated. That's actually an interesting path forward for me. I'm very comfortable playing RC. So, in other words, substitute I for III, then I'll have a I VI II V. Or did I miss something?

[Doublea A]

I've progressed to the point that I'm able to improvise over some simple structures, Autumn Leaves being one of them. The bump in the road for me is the relatively quick III VI II V that's shown as Emi7 Eb7 Dmi7 Db7. I treat the Eb7 and Db7 as tritonal substitutions of A7 and G7. The challenge for me at the moment isn't finding something suitable to play, but rather being able to play fast enough to keep up. One shortcut I've tried is to play A phrygian dominant over the Emi7 Eb7. Even though this isn't technically correct the changes happen quickly enough that I can kind of get away with it. Same with the Dmi7 Db7, although I'm less confident with phrygian dominant there (seems to work but then again maybe not quite.) Any strategies or guidance are greatly appreciated.

I will make a video for you( in this thread) later this week and post some ideas for you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[buduranus2]

I will make a video for you( in this thread) later this week and post some ideas for you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Looking forward to it. Can't thank you enough!

[pingu]

I don't want to over do this but ...

its not a iii VI ii V

The next chord is Cmaj7 ie. the IV chord (in G)

There's a movement like that in Bird blues changes
like Blues for Alice

[pauln]

If you are thinking in Roman numerals it is important to distinguish the chord types using upper case for major and augmented, and lower case for minor and diminished, because you want your improvising to express the harmony. Furthermore, chords as written may be OK if accompanying, but those bare seventh chords may not be representative of the harmony from which a soloist is improving melody.

Compare this...

12 x 12 12 12 x
11 x 10 11 12 x
10 x 10 10 10 x
9 x 9 8 8 x
8 x 9 9 7 x
7 x 7 8 8 x

...etc, do these chords make you think of stronger and clearer suggestions for melodic ideas?

[KirkP]

The Real Book used those chords (with the downward chromatic bass line), but I think most classic recordings don’t play it that way and some keep it pretty much one chord per measure. But since it’s in the Real Book seems like everyone thinks those chords are essential. I prefer to keep it simple.

[christianm77]

Yes, very well stated. That's actually an interesting path forward for me. I'm very comfortable playing RC. So, in other words, substitute I for III, then I'll have a I VI II V. Or did I miss something?

No that’s right.

It’s just a way into C the subdominant chord (IV).

Pingu mentions blues for Alice - that’s a route into the IV chord too, same thing functionally speaking.

Another version of the same changes people often play is this

Em Ebm Dm G7

If I’m soloing I won’t try and nail that every time. OTOH I might build patches of complexity in other areas.

My sensei for this is Peter Bernstein. His pathways can be really chromatic but he always has the goal in mind so it always works.

[ragman1]

The challenge for me at the moment isn't finding something suitable to play, but rather being able to play fast enough to keep up.

How fast are you playing it?

Most players either just play two bars of the minor or, if there are the descending chords, just put in a couple of notes here and there, or arpeggio fragments. They don't really make a big thing of it. That point is a natural pause in the tune anyway.

[buduranus2]

How fast are you playing it?

Most players either just play two bars of the minor or, if there are the descending chords, just put in a couple of notes here and there, or arpeggio fragments. They don't really make a big thing of it. That point is a natural pause in the tune anyway.

That's a good observation about "a natural pause." At the same time, I'm looking at Autumn Leaves as an "etude." My intention is to apply concepts I develop in this context to other tunes. As for the tempo, I don't know the BPM at the moment, but medium swing, nothing extreme.

The Real Book used those chords (with the downward chromatic bass line), but I think most classic recordings don’t play it that way and some keep it pretty much one chord per measure. But since it’s in the Real Book seems like everyone thinks those chords are essential. I prefer to keep it simple.

I figured it was Real Book reharmonization, although, as you point out, once it's in the RB it becomes the standard approach. Maybe just simplify it, as you suggest.

No that’s right.

It’s just a way into C the subdominant chord (IV).

Pingu mentions blues for Alice - that’s a route into the IV chord too, same thing functionally speaking.

Another version of the same changes people often play is this

Em Ebm Dm G7

If I’m soloing I won’t try and nail that every time. OTOH I might build patches of complexity in other areas.

My sensei for this is Peter Bernstein. His pathways can be really chromatic but he always has the goal in mind so it always works.

I'll check PB out. I've listened to him before, but never sat down and studied his playing. The Blues for Alice is a great recommendation. I'll listen to it later today.

[ragman1]

That's a good observation about "a natural pause." At the same time, I'm looking at Autumn Leaves as an "etude." My intention is to apply concepts I develop in this context to other tunes. As for the tempo, I don't know the BPM at the moment, but medium swing, nothing extreme.

Well, to me Autumn Leaves is a tune. When one's playing it one sort of automatically does something over those descending chords to fit in. To be honest, that bit of the tune's not terribly important. As I said, if you look at some transcriptions on YouTube you'll see a lot of players either don't use the descending chords or just skip round it a bit. It's not difficult.

I think by introducing things like Phrygian Dominant, etc, you're making life difficult for yourself. Of course, if you're just using the chords as an etude or exercise then I don't know.

I did this for someone some time ago. Might be useful.

[matt.guitarteacher]

2-beat chord changes work great for basic arpeggios. It's the longer changes that you have to actually do something with . :-)

Try 1-3-5-7, 1-3-5-7 etc

Or.. 7-5-3-1, 7-5-3-1 etc

Alternating 1-3-5-7, 7-5-3-1 etc

Arpeggio-ascending, scale-descending works great too. Fees are basic, bread and butter étude-like exercises.

[buduranus2]

2-beat chord changes work great for basic arpeggios. It's the longer changes that you have to actually do something with . :-)

Try 1-3-5-7, 1-3-5-7 etc

Or.. 7-5-3-1, 7-5-3-1 etc

Alternating 1-3-5-7, 7-5-3-1 etc

Arpeggio-ascending, scale-descending works great too. Fees are basic, bread and butter étude-like exercises.

Hey Matt. Great ideas. I'm currently working (slogging) my way through David Baker's "How to Play Bebop Vol. 2." You inadvertently reminded me that there's an entire section on handling this exact chord sequence. Also, your "arps up scales down" suggestion is not too far removed from a concept I typically use, which is consonant (III) dissonant (VI) consonant (II) dissonant (V). Am I allowed to read from a method book on the bandstand?

[buduranus2]

Well, to me Autumn Leaves is a tune. When one's playing it one sort of automatically does something over those descending chords to fit in. To be honest, that bit of the tune's not terribly important. As I said, if you look at some transcriptions on YouTube you'll see a lot of players either don't use the descending chords or just skip round it a bit. It's not difficult.

I think by introducing things like Phrygian Dominant, etc, you're making life difficult for yourself. Of course, if you're just using the chords as an etude or exercise then I don't know.

I did this for someone some time ago. Might be useful.

Well, that's me all the way. Why keep it simple when I can muck it up with a bunch of arcane theory? That said, I'm still internalizing the sequences contained in the various scales and have gotten to the point where I'm not "thinking" scales but rather applying various note sequences from them more intuitively. BTW, your video reminded me of some licks I used to play over Europa (Santana) which is almost the same tune. Appreciate you!

[bobby d]

As far as making it smooth I agree with Rob MacKillop. Many guitarists play an arpeggio for each chord going down chromatically. That works, but just staying within the Natural Emi scale (or minor blues scale) sounds less choppy or at least different from the obvious. Also note that B is a common note for all four chords (because it's in the melody). Repeating the B throughout will help with continuity.

Another version would be to stay with the basic Emi blues scale throughout the first three chords, then playing one of the chord tones of the C#mi chord to end the phrase. You can even add some chromaticism to the Emi scale. Of course you can change to a different scale for each corresponding chord, but I prefer to keep it more melodic (and smooth).

[KirkP]

One fake book I often consult when looking for old-school chords is Anthologie des Grilles de Jazz. Here’s how it harmonizes Autumn Leaves in Gmin.



Transposed to Emin, bars 27 & 28 would be:

| Em EmM7 | Em7 C#mb5 |

but I think of the last chord as Em6, so would write it

| Em EmM7 | Em7 Em6 |.

Keeping the Em triad going and just moving one voice is called a line cliché.

The Anthologie shows a cycle of 5ths turnaround as an option, which transposes to:

| Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 |

The Real Book chart makes a couple of tritone substitutions to that turnaround, which brings back the chromatic descent that we saw in that line cliché, except now it’s moving the entire chord instead of just one note:

| Em7 Eb7 | Dm7 Db7 |.

That reharmonization is good, but why always play it that way?

[christianm77]

One fake book I often consult when looking for old-school chords is Anthologie des Grilles de Jazz. Here’s how it harmonizes Autumn Leaves in Gmin.



Transposed to Emin, bars 27 & 28 would be:

| Em EmM7 | Em7 C#mb5 |

but I think of the last chord as Em6, so would write it

| Em EmM7 | Em7 Em6 |.

Keeping the Em triad going and just moving one voice is called a line cliché.

The Anthologie shows a cycle of 5ths turnaround as an option, which transposes to:

| Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 |

The Real Book chart makes a couple of tritone substitutions to that turnaround, which brings back the chromatic descent that we saw in that line cliché, except now it’s moving the entire chord instead of just one note:

| Em7 Eb7 | Dm7 Db7 |.

That reharmonization is good, but why always play it that way?

Zut alors! C’est une grille.

[christianm77]

Em7b5 to Eb7 to D7 is my kind of filth

[ragman1]

The OP has said that he's not interested in how to play Autumn Leaves as a tune, he's just using the chords as an etude, his interest being in how to cover Em/Eb7 - Dm/Db7 bebop-style, as far as I can make out.

I'm looking at Autumn Leaves as an "etude." My intention is to apply concepts I develop in this context to other tunes.

I'm still internalizing the sequences contained in the various scales and have gotten to the point where I'm not "thinking" scales but rather applying various note sequences from them more intuitively.

I made the same mistake too. Although I happen to think he's wrong about it because that descending chromatic sequence will almost certainly have the same function as a connecting passage or a turnaround even in an etude.

In any case, there are innumerable examples of it in YouTube vids. All he's got to do is look. According to the OP, however, he's only interested in weird stuff like Phrygian Dominant instead of the more obvious choices. So I'll just let him get on with it :-)

Hint: Pro players usually just play the obvious. Only they do it better than most of us.

[buduranus2]

As far as making it smooth I agree with Rob MacKillop. Many guitarists play an arpeggio for each chord going down chromatically. That works, but just staying within the Natural Emi scale (or minor blues scale) sounds less choppy or at least different from the obvious. Also note that B is a common note for all four chords (because it's in the melody). Repeating the B throughout will help with continuity.

I had a minor (pun intended) epiphany last night and have unlocked a trove of options for handling these changes. I agree with you that being melodic is paramount. In this regard I've become more motivic in my approach. The only question I have for you is how is B part of a Dmi7? Regardless, your points are well taken and greatly appreciated.

[buduranus2]

The OP has said that he's not interested in how to play Autumn Leaves as a tune, he's just using the chords as an etude, his interest being in how to cover Em/Eb7 - Dm/Db7 bebop-style, as far as I can make out.

I made the same mistake too. Although I happen to think he's wrong about it because that descending chromatic sequence will almost certainly have the same function as a connecting passage or a turnaround even in an etude.

In any case, there are innumerable examples of it in YouTube vids. All he's got to do is look. According to the OP, however, he's only interested in weird stuff like Phrygian Dominant instead of the more obvious choices. So I'll just let him get on with it :-)

Hint: Pro players usually just play the obvious. Only they do it better than most of us.

This is the OP. I first want to say your observations have value. That said, I may not have expressed my intentions as clearly as I might otherwise have. Of course I want to be able to play the tune, and, in fact, I can play it with many of the elements I strive to incorporate in my improvs: forward motion, use of chromaticism to add tension/release and to facilitate playing chord tones on the strong beats, rhythmic misdirection (my term, aka "syncopation") and a relaxed, legato feel. So there's the aspect of playing the tune, and additional considerations such as internalizing and applying chord/note sequences to apply more universally (i.e. an "etude.") I would respectfully differ with your characterization that I'm "only interested in weird stuff like Phrygian Dominant instead of more obvious choices." As a developing player, I don't look at modes of harmonic minor, in this example, as "weird." Rather, they're sequences of notes arranged in a way to make them accessible and applicable to a given chord, cadence, whatever. Lastly, I respectfully take exception to your assertion that "pro players usually just play the obvious." Too many examples to the contrary, at least to my ears, to enumerate. In closing, I very much appreciate your perspectives.

[matt.guitarteacher]

This is the OP. I first want to say your observations have value. That said, I may not have expressed my intentions as clearly as I might otherwise have. Of course I want to be able to play the tune, and, in fact, I can play it with many of the elements I strive to incorporate in my improvs: forward motion, use of chromaticism to add tension/release and to facilitate playing chord tones on the strong beats, rhythmic misdirection (my term, aka "syncopation") and a relaxed, legato feel. So there's the aspect of playing the tune, and additional considerations such as internalizing and applying chord/note sequences to apply more universally (i.e. an "etude.") I would respectfully differ with your characterization that I'm "only interested in weird stuff like Phrygian Dominant instead of more obvious choices." As a developing player, I don't look at modes of harmonic minor, in this example, as "weird." Rather, they're sequences of notes arranged in a way to make them accessible and applicable to a given chord, cadence, whatever. Lastly, I respectfully take exception to your assertion that "pro players usually just play the obvious." Too many examples to the contrary, at least to my ears, to enumerate. In closing, I very much appreciate your perspectives.

It's just his way of talking. Not just to your post.


Anyway, I've heard a lot of really good players on this forum and elsewhere talk about basically shedding specific things to play on faster moving changes in tunes. Randy Vincent has a whole book on it. Patterns and workarounds for troublespots have larger implications for general playing as well.