What is considered the standard way to look at extensions in terms of arpeggios?

[christianm77]

Broadly speaking I am influenced by Marsh's conception that there are three extended dominant sounds beyond the mixolydian (i.e. beyond the seventh)

Lyd Dom - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 --> key sound 7#11
Reg Dominant or 'Flamenco' (Harm + Nat Min Mode V) - 1 b2 #2 3 4 5 b6 b7 - Key sound - 7b9, 7b13
Altered - 1 b2 #2 3 b5 b6 b7 - Key sound - 7b5

[christianm77]

Also there are the symetrical scales.... Also b7 melodic minor + mix gives roughly speaking my second scale, but mostly that comes from Barry Harris's bVII7 into the 3rd of V7 type shenanigens. Warne's scale has an A, not an Ab...

Warne also said 'there's a lot of great music to be played within the seventh' - I think in his understanding Barry Harris would be a theory of music within the 7th. This is literally true of his scale running - BH goes 1-7-1 lol. Warne goes into two and half octaves.

[znerken]

One perhaps strange question, but since I have learned the intro by ear, I wonder, is there a point to write it out/look at the real book to be able to count it correctly? Or will you be able to play it correctly in time, when you’ve played it with the record and a metronome enough? I mean the most important thing is not to overthink it and feel it, and hear it, isn’t it?


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[znerken]

We can start with the next tiny bit. Not quite sure what to call this. Just D mixolydian?


I see a G6 in there.. F is sharp, remember

[ragman1]

yes, it is

Oh, don't start him off, for god's sake!

[starjasmine]

that's why there is technically no such thing as a b9/#9 chord.

Sorry, not true. Difficult, if not impossible, to play on guitar, but absolutely possible and correct in, say, a horn section, or on the piano.

[christianm77]

Oh no it isn’t

[christianm77]

yes, it is

altered is either/or. you can't alter the same note twice. that's why there is technically no such thing as a b9/#9 chord. b9/b10 is correct even if it's rarely used. G7alt is a rather unspecific chord symbol used out of lazyness. but an "altered" chord doesn't mean that every note *must* be altered both ways.

Ok well I don’t disagree with any of that. It’s just a quibble about terminology. If someone writes alt on a chart, it seems to me a reasonable assumption that they mean altered scale....

But apparently that’s not such a reasonable assumption.

Stop writing alt, best solution.

If you put the b10 in the altered scale then you must also have the b11. It’s a train wreck theoretically that scale lol.

[christianm77]

Btw I think the #9/b10 thing simply came from people flatting the seventh of the key against the V chord. It makes particular sense to do this where you have direction changes in the harmonic minor, because the aug 2 sounds a bit unidiomatic.

So instead of G Ab B Ab G you get G Ab Bb Ab G

[rpjazzguitar]

At some point, I learned that alt meant both altered fifths and both altered ninths.

So, I started comping that way and discovered that, for the most part, playing b9b13 worked best. Sounds good on guitar and seemed to work with what most pianists (in my experience) play.

Soloing is a different story. All the notes in the alt scale work fine, but it's sensitive to the quality of the melody in the line you play.

[christianm77]

At some point, I learned that alt meant both altered fifths and both altered ninths.

So, I started comping that way and discovered that, for the most part, playing b9b13 worked best. Sounds good on guitar and seemed to work with what most pianists (in my experience) play.

Soloing is a different story. All the notes in the alt scale work fine, but it's sensitive to the quality of the melody in the line you play.

I think b5 works best when it’s part of obvious voiceleading. Going to the ninth in the next chord is the most obvious way.

in terms of soloing I still find the altered scale a problematic scale choice on the VI7 .... I don’t like it there.

[christianm77]

Actually I did it today and I quite liked it

[znerken]

We can start with the next tiny bit. Not quite sure what to call this. Just D mixolydian?


I see a G6 in there.. F is sharp, remember

Back to topic, stop fighting

[christianm77]

Back to topic, stop fighting

D mixolydian/dominant scale.

That’s a Gmaj7, no?

[znerken]

D mixolydian/dominant scale.

That’s a Gmaj7, no?

Haha, yes, it was supposed to say Gmaj7, then I think it got too late... So I guess Emily would call that jazz minor up a fifth then, as we have talked about.. Since she didn't do modes. But tomato tomatoes etc..

[znerken]

while the solo is in double time it's best to hear and notate it as a medium tempo long-meter blues. that's how wes phrases it.

i wouldn't overanalyse it but just take it for what it is. a bunch of favourite blueslicks and standard bebop runs, a few cliche tricks like the dim scale for bar 6 or the cry me a river/ stairway to heaven lick. it's the execution, phrasing and timing that makes this solo so fantastic. try to break it up into logical chunks and play these chunks over other tunes at the appropriate places.

take the first lick. since it's in double time it is a two-bar lick for a plain D7 resolving to the 3rd of G7 then 1, 5 and b7. (the second part is a classic blues/dominant lick of it's own, it's basically the opening melody of west coast blues). so take these two bars with resolution and play them on the blues in every key in bar three and four (where you actually have two bars of I7 moving to IV7). now you have something pretty to play there every time until you get bored with it and find something else. find two more ideas and you can fill up one chorus. rinse and repeat. it's not rocket science.

like this?

(slightly changed)

[christianm77]

Haha, yes, it was supposed to say Gmaj7, then I think it got too late... So I guess Emily would call that jazz minor up a fifth then, as we have talked about.. Since she didn't do modes. But tomato tomatoes etc..

I have no idea how Emily would have viewed that scale and even less how Wes would, but it’s D mixolydian, also known as the dominant scale.

Whether the dominant scale is a ‘mode’ or not depends mostly on what you call it.

[znerken]

yes. like this but with the correct rhythms i'll write it down for you if i find the time

Did I play it wrong as well, rhythm wise? I mean I didn't aim for identical, but it needs to swing

[znerken]

it's hard to swing at that tempo. set the metronome to 140 and play two bars of d7 into g7. play the lick as identical as you can.

Attachment 59929

This is part of my problem with jazz guitar. 140 bpm is way too quick for my head and brain, but my teacher also told me it’s much easier to swing when the tempo is faster. I could probably play this very prepracticed lick, but at a live situation that is really fast. I mean even playing the intro of D natural Blues at 70 bpm, I feel like it’s is really really fast.. I’m young, aren’t I supposed to be quick? Argh


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[znerken]

Could you help me understand why you wrote the music out in that way? I mean if you divide this into eights, you get this, or?

[rpjazzguitar]

Could you help me understand why you wrote the music out in that way? I mean if you divide this into eights, you get this, or?

The notation makes it difficult to read and that can make it harder to swing. It's best to show a note at the beginning of each beat, even if that note is tied to something before and/or after it. There are more educated people than me on here who may provide better info, but it's my understanding that you have to show the start of beat 3 at a minimum. IMO it's also helpful to show the start of other beats, as needed, to avoid things like what you have in bar 26. The downbeat of beat 2 falls somewhere in the middle of a dotted eighth there ... that dotted eighth needs to be broken up so that you show a note at the start of beat 2.

[znerken]

This is a great lick (divided)

[rpjazzguitar]

I think b5 works best when it’s part of obvious voiceleading. Going to the ninth in the next chord is the most obvious way.

in terms of soloing I still find the altered scale a problematic scale choice on the VI7 .... I don’t like it there.

I have heard the common wisdom (which I'm probably restating inaccurately) that you use alt on V7 going to I and lyd dominant on other 7th chords. I don't usually think about that when I'm playing, but I did learn the "alt" sound (meaning, to me, either a m add9 a half step up or mindlessly running the alt scale). For other 7ths I know the sound of the options for 5 and 9 and I pick them by ear. I guess I handle alt differently because there are four different alterations -- too many to think about one at a time.

[christianm77]

This is what I would think of as 'vanilla bebop' choices, based on the stuff I've looked at:

Cycling
I7 - mix, altered
V7 - mix, altered
II7 - mix, lydian dominant (VI mel min)
VI7 - nothing or phryg/phryg dominant (II harm min)
III7 - phryg/phryg dominant (VI harm min), altered (IV mel min)
VII7 - altered (I mel min)

Going the other way
IV7 - lydian dominant (I mel min)
bVII7 - lydian dominant (IV mel min)
bIII - not very common
bVI7 - lydian dominant (bIII mel min)
bII - tritone of V7 so lydian dominant
bV7 - tritone of I7


Altered also means tritone dominant - similar, not exactly the same.

Notice, IV7 and VII7 and (one version of) III7 and bVII7 are kind of the same (tritone) i.e. have the same melodic minor (I and IV respectively.)

These are the common ones, it's obv not every degree.

The big stand out is bVI7#11 which in classical terminology is the French 6th.

Hopefully you can see the parent scales for most of these modes come from obvious diatonic substitutions and modal interchange, generally quite diatonic with the V7alt and I7 alt being the big divergence from this rule.

Alterations of the key:

II7 - #4 poss #5 too
VI7 - #1 b9
III7 - #5 OR b6 b7 (alt)
bVII7 - b6 b7
VII7 - b3 (misspelt)
IV7 - b3

...

Anyway that all looked a lot more technical than it actually seems to me. Just the choices I notice from the 40s and 50s solos I've transcribed.

TL;DR - it's reasonably diatonic unless you are going V7-I or I7-IV

[rpjazzguitar]

This is what I would think of as 'vanilla bebop' choices, based on the stuff I've looked at:

Translating some of this into chord name notation and asking for forgiveness in advance:

Cycling
I7 - mix, altered C7 or C alt


V7 - mix, altered G7 or Galt

II7 - mix, lydian dominant (VI mel min). D7 or D7#11

VI7 - nothing or phryg/phryg dominant (II harm min) A7b9b13 (I sometimes think A7b9 and select an E or F by ear).


III7 - phryg/phryg dominant (VI harm min), altered (IV mel min) E7b9b13 or Ealt

VII7 - altered (I mel min) Balt

Going the other way
IV7 - lydian dominant (I mel min) F7#11
bVII7 - lydian dominant (IV mel min) Bb7#11
bIII - not very common
bVI7 - lydian dominant (bIII mel min) Eb7#11
bII - tritone of V7 so lydian dominant Db7#11
bV7 - tritone of I7 Gb7


Altered also means tritone dominant - similar, not exactly the same.

Notice, IV7 and VII7 and (one version of) III7 and bVII7 are kind of the same (tritone) i.e. have the same melodic minor (I and IV respectively.)

These are the common ones, it's obv not every degree.

The big stand out is bVI7#11 which in classical terminology is the French 6th.

Hopefully you can see the parent scales for most of these modes come from obvious diatonic substitutions and modal interchange, generally quite diatonic with the V7alt and I7 alt being the big divergence from this rule.

Alterations of the key:

II7 - #4 poss #5 too
VI7 - #1 b9
III7 - #5 OR b6 b7 (alt)
bVII7 - b6 b7
VII7 - b3 (misspelt)
IV7 - b3

...

Anyway that all looked a lot more technical than it actually seems to me. Just the choices I notice from the 40s and 50s solos I've transcribed.

TL;DR - it's reasonably diatonic unless you are going V7-I or I7-IV

So, it's 7#11, alt or b9b13.

Well, I guess that was your point, more or less, but I needed to translate it into my internal language.