Scales/modes question

[ragman1]

No guys, that wasn't the question but thanks.

We're trying to help you.

I'm not really sure what your question is. I think it's how to reduce everything to find the simplest way of getting through changes. Is that it?

I think you're talking about notes and soloing and mixing that up with the CAGED system. CAGED is really for chords, not notes. I think you're going to get very confused if you try to relate scale notes to chord shapes. It seems right but not in practice.

You can solo using the chord shapes as a guide but you'll be very limited if you stick to one scale. It doesn't work like that.

But let's hear more accurately what your question is first.

[Tal_175]

I think there is a fundamental difference between how piano players look at these things and how guitar players do.
"Chords come from scales" says Barry Harris. Now that's more obvious to a piano player than to a guitar player. Piano players learn scales first, because at the very least its elementary to the understanding of the instrument to know that the white keys are the natural notes and black keys are the accidentals. Guitar players learn the C, A, G, E, D chords first and go from there. So there is a tendency for guitar players make sense of the fretboard with respect to the chord shapes. Piano players play chords with two hands where each hand is pushing notes from different octaves of a scale where each octave is visually separated. It's easier for piano players to see chords as "notes selected from a given scale" and guitar players to see scales as "notes around a chord shape".
Both views should be cultivated ideally.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I think you're talking about notes and soloing and mixing that up with the CAGED system. CAGED is really for chords, not notes. I think you're going to get very confused if you try to relate scale notes to chord shapes. It seems right but not in practice.

This just isn't true in the real world.

I'm not a CAGED player really, but there has to be a basic understanding of how this term is used commonly by other players. It's just a term , just label , but its meaning is what it is, based on how it is actually used by the majority of players out there. There are simply too many players who use the umbrella of this terminology to talk about single note playing - in addition to chords - to make a blanket statement that it "is not" about single notes. That's simply not true.

It can't even be quantified like that. There's no single creator and originator of "CAGED". The only way to talk about what it IS, is to talk about how the term is actually used as a label by other players. In that sense, CAGED absolutely IS about individual notes as well as chord shapes, because that's the way the term is used. Again, not my thing. Just the truth of the semantics of it.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

This just isn't true in the real world.

I'm not a CAGED player really, but there has to be a basic understanding of how this term is used commonly by other players. It's just a term , just label , but its meaning is what it is, based on how it is actually used by the majority of players out there. There are simply too many players who use the umbrella of this terminology to talk about single note playing - in addition to chords - to make a blanket statement that it "is not" about single notes. That's simply not true.

It can't even be quantified like that. There's no single creator and originator of "CAGED". The only way to talk about what it IS, is to talk about how the term is actually used as a label by other players. In that sense, CAGED absolutely IS about individual notes as well as chord shapes, because that's the way the term is used. Again, not my thing. Just the truth of the semantics of it.

+1. For example, if I'm sight reading single notes, I take a gander at the range the notes are in and go to a likely spot on the neck. Hmmm... if this is in Bb I must be in CAGED's G position.

[ragman1]

I think different folks understand it different ways. I never learnt the caged thing. I just slowly got the chords, then heard about caged and thought 'oh, yes, that's clever!'

But I was reading notes first because I did classical at the beginning. 'Chords' came later when I branched out from classical. And I have to say being able to read music and play classical didn't help one bit with soloing over chords. That was an entirely different ball game. I had to start again, basically.

I've had to start again several times :-)

[DS71]

To shapes? No.

Perhaps it wasn't clear. CAGED will help you find the chords up the neck, e.g. C (C shape) at the open, 3rd (A shape), 5th(G shape), 8th(E shape) positions, etc etc.

Yes, you can find a C major scale at each of these positions. You can find the notes of the other chords in C (Dm, Em, F, G7, Am, Bø) within that scale.

But who plays like that? I couldn't. Try this

Yep, Nothing about the original post mentioned playing the major scale/key center across a set of changes/modulations. Just like Martino, Joe Pass, or Herb Ellis wouldn't. And using scales as a guide wether the harmony is static or modulating, doesn't mean all 12 notes are not available all the time.
but thanks.

[christianm77]

Yep, Nothing about the original post mentioned playing the major scale/key center across a set of changes/modulations. Just like Martino, Joe Pass, or Herb Ellis wouldn't. And using scales as a guide wether the harmony is static or modulating, doesn't mean all 12 notes are not available all the time.
but thanks.

I have literally no idea what you require from this thread.

[ragman1]

Yep, Nothing about the original post mentioned playing the major scale/key center across a set of changes/modulations. Just like Martino, Joe Pass, or Herb Ellis wouldn't. And using scales as a guide wether the harmony is static or modulating, doesn't mean all 12 notes are not available all the time.
but thanks.

Actually both Herb Ellis and Joe Pass were shape players, Herb Ellis especially. There are threads here about his shape system.

Herb Ellis: Shape System

You keep saying thanks but no thanks. So what is it you want?

I asked you, please, to re-state your question because it wasn't clear. People, including myself, have taken time and trouble to help you here. Even Christian and Matt, who are pretty sharp, couldn't get it.

You did say this:

I'm also interested in people ways of reduction

Presumably that means simplifying what you have to play.

When Bb7 goes to Eb7 I want to see the mixolydian for each one across the whole neck for each chord. F7 too, and all the changes in all my tunes.

Then study all the fingerings for each applicable mixolydian scale. Who else can do that for you?

I just want to be able to easily modulate and see Maj, min, and Dom7 all the way across the fingerboard across the all of those chords.

Same again. So practice. There's no magic route, you know.

Be clear about what you want. And be realistic about what nobody else can give you.

[ragman1]

wtf? it's exactly the opposite. caged is really for notes, not chords.

Then why bother with all this? Just learn all the notes and scales first and then pick out your chords from them. Not.

The Guitarist'''s Guide to the CAGED System | 2013-08-01 | Premier Guitar

relating scale notes to chord shapes is what every good player i've ever met does (and i've met quite a few). actually once you're at a certain level it's impossible not to.

Absolutely. But you have to know both. If you were a total beginner and went to a guitar teacher, what would you get shown first? Correct, chords.

this thread makes no sense.

You're not too wrong there :-)

[matt.guitarteacher]

Then why bother with all this? Just learn all the notes and scales first and then pick out your chords from them. Not.

The Guitarist'''s Guide to the CAGED System | 2013-08-01 | Premier Guitar

Okay? This isn't a definitive source for anything. Non-jazz thing for beginners. This is the way a lot of strummers talk about chords etc.

Again, CAGED is not codified or something. It's loose terminology players use.You can even find different fingerings out there for what people describe as "CAGED". Meanwhile, Jimmy Bruno's fingerings line up EXACTLY with caged fingerings , but he insists it's "not CAGED". There is no international committee on CAGED . I don't think you can so easily say exactly what it IS or is NOT.

Jazz players who use it seem to be predominately talking about the single note aspects.

[grahambop]

There's a nice exercise Joe Pass did on one of his videos (and which came up recently in another thread), where he picks a chord then plays the scale which fits that chord, from the top note of the chord down to the bottom note of the chord and up again. Then he picks another chord which has the same top note as the first chord, and repeats the process for that chord, and so on. Makes playing the scales a bit more musical, puts them in a context etc. I guess you could either pick fairly random chords, or try and relate them to some actual chord changes or something. (I don't think Joe mentioned any rules about that).

Anyway this might be one way to map out Bb7 patterns going to related Eb7 patterns and so on.

[pingu]

If I'm understanding the OP question ....

Yes it is totally a good thing to be able to see the diatonic chords
Around the various CAGED shapes
In typical progressions

Like 1625 progressions for ex

X3555x
5x555x
X5355x
3x345x

That's what I do anyway ...

[ragman1]

Okay? This isn't a definitive source for anything. Non-jazz thing for beginners. This is the way a lot of strummers talk about chords etc.

Again, CAGED is not codified or something. It's loose terminology players use.You can even find different fingerings out there for what people describe as "CAGED". Meanwhile, Jimmy Bruno's fingerings line up EXACTLY with caged fingerings , but he insists it's "not CAGED". There is no international committee on CAGED . I don't think you can so easily say exactly what it IS or is NOT.

Jazz players who use it seem to be predominately talking about the single note aspects.

I was only talking about beginners who learn their chord position via CAGED shapes, not advanced jazz players. I'm actually slightly surprised that advanced jazz players talk about CAGED at all.

[ragman1]

having taught hundreds of beginners over the last two decades i never start with chords for many different reasons (one being that i teach standard notation from day 1). are there actually any serious (!) books for beginners that start with chords? i think it's unlikely.

I have nothing to say to that. Guitar isn't the violin, cello, or other single-note string instrument. The idea of starting a beginner who wanted to play guitar with single notes wouldn't occur to me. Naming the strings for tuning and/or basic music reading, yes, but tunes before chords, no.

I can't remember any beginner, either anyone that I've taught or from any other source, who wanted to learn how to pick out a tune first and not learn chords. For one thing, it's not a solo instrument like a trumpet or something, it's an accompanying instrument.

I think we're definitely on different planets with this one!

[ragman1]

There's a nice exercise Joe Pass did on one of his videos (and which came up recently in another thread), where he picks a chord then plays the scale which fits that chord, from the top note of the chord down to the bottom note of the chord and up again. Then he picks another chord which has the same top note as the first chord, and repeats the process for that chord, and so on. Makes playing the scales a bit more musical, puts them in a context etc. I guess you could either pick fairly random chords, or try and relate them to some actual chord changes or something. (I don't think Joe mentioned any rules about that).

Anyway this might be one way to map out Bb7 patterns going to related Eb7 patterns and so on.

I've got it at home but I think it's this one. I haven't checked through it, though.

[Jazzstdnt]

I have nothing to say to that. Guitar isn't the violin, cello, or other single-note string instrument. The idea of starting a beginner who wanted to play guitar with single notes wouldn't occur to me. Naming the strings for tuning and/or basic music reading, yes, but tunes before chords, no.

I can't remember any beginner, either anyone that I've taught or from any other source, who wanted to learn how to pick out a tune first and not learn chords. For one thing, it's not a solo instrument like a trumpet or something, it's an accompanying instrument.

I think we're definitely on different planets with this one!

Most robust guitar course books start beginners with reading melodies. Classical, pop, jazz, you name it. Are you at all familiar with such books?

Chords are tough for beginners.

[ragman1]

Most robust guitar course books start beginners with reading melodies. Classical, pop, jazz, you name it. Are you at all familiar with such books?

No, I'm not. But when you say classical, pop, and jazz, that's a broad field. Probably classical books do start with notes. Very likely.

I'll check when I'm next near a music shop. Lots of posters seem to think it's notes first too. Who knows, you may all be right :-)

[christianm77]

No, I'm not. But when you say classical, pop, and jazz, that's a broad field. Probably classical books do start with notes. Very likely.

I'll check when I'm next near a music shop. Lots of posters seem to think it's notes first too. Who knows, you may all be right :-)

I started on notes (classical) but when I crossed over into rock it was all chords.

I didn't see any of the Leavitt books etc until much later.

[christianm77]

As a teacher of beginners it was always tough to evaluate what was best for the student. I think notes are easier and better long term, but there needs to be some instant gratification to keep them going... Riffs using one or two notes etc. I couldn't play chords in time for months and months after I started. Anyway..

[DS71]

Remind myself never to bring up modes and improv on a guitar forum again. wow.

[Jazzstdnt]

but there needs to be some instant gratification to keep them going... Riffs using one or two notes etc.

That's an excellent point right there.

[John Tom]

Our questioner has maybe covered the same route I covered.
I needed to learn the major scale
So I chose 4 adjacent frets per string with the whole hand moving a fret 'up' when necessary but still encompassing 4 adjacent frets
This gives me 5 major scales across all strings with these root note positions:
2nd finger 6th string
4th finger 6th string
2nd finger 5th string
4th finger 5th string
2nd finger 4th string
(4th finger 4th string is a duplicate of scale shape 2nd finger 6th string - so redundant)

All fine & dandy but using scales to start improvising doesn't get you too far because you're not (I wasn't) hitting chord tones - I hadn't realised I needed to!
So now I had to pick out the arpeggios from those 5 scale patterns
Now I can fruitfully hit chord tones and fill in the nice stuff in between
All basic stuff for accomplished guitarists

Now i hear about modes and how nice they'll sound. I read that the modes are just rearrangements of the major scale I already know - fantastic - I'll just play the major scale starting at a note of my choice.
Great I can play Dorian scale over a min7 chord - ah - forgot that I still need chord tones. But I only did major (7) arpeggios. Rats I need to get more arpeggios under my belt.

So I think that's the question posed
I need all arpeggios arising from the major scale modes and then I can start using modes to improvise while hitting chord tones - but how do I navigate all this?
Do I think/visualise Dorian as a separate minor scale, or just as Ionian starting a tone later
Do I learn arpeggios in relation to the scale patterns I know, or in relation to the chord shapes I also know
Do I try to merge the pictures - scale patterns, arpeggios, chords - and is that going to help or hinder when I want to transfer my knowledge from single line soloing to chord/melody

?