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Here's something I posted 7 or 8 years ago... I'm using modal references... by that I mean different perceptions besides V I, using melodic licks... which work with characteristic pitches to help imply harmonic movement. Also while I comped for the example... I tried to use... more Dorian harmonic references.... so the harmonic organization is using Dorian and it's harmonic extensions... again for functional. Dorian is also very natural Modal Interchange to Melodic Minor, which I use to frame my use of licks, Blue notes.... MM can function very sub dominant.... meaning easy to go to Tonic or Dominant... and has more doors to get there. I think I aslo made a comping vid... of Dolphin also...but I need to go play a Bluegrass gig at Brewery then later back a vocalist.... great example of playing completely different styles with very different harmonic references.
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07-01-2018 04:27 PM
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I'd call it a pretty "micro" view, but nothing wrong with that, this is the functional part of the tunexpected you're looking at.
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
So someone else might go strict CST and be looking at different scales as access points here. Kinda overkill imho, but it could work.
Someone else might look for chunks that can be simplified, or related to one basic idea (you seem to be getting towards that a bit here)
So what would you do in some of the later sections? The 4 bars of G pedal with different qualities to the 4 bars of F pedal? The "modal" interlude before the turnaround? Those last 4 "nasty" chords?
There's a lot of different ways to look at that--no "correct" way, really..maybe some ways are more streamlined? Doesn't mean you have to stick to them.
When I try to organize a tune, I think of it as mapping out a road trip. So maybe forst, I look for the most direct route through the tune. It might be route functionality to the CST turnpike--not all legs of the journey are necessarily accessed by the same road.
And then, once I've mapped the direct route, maybe there's some side trips involved.
Getting too metaphoric. Yuck, sorry.
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I appreciate the reply. Here are some thoughts about the later sections. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Gmaj7 G7sus A/G Ebmaj7#11/G. So, it's a G pedal. I start with Gmaj7. I probably avoid the C# because I'm going to want it to sound dramatic when I get to it against the A/G. I can see that there's a moving voice, B, C, C# D, one note for each chord. So, for my first chorus (assuming I'm not reacting on the fly to the rest of the band) I might embed the moving voice in some kind of melodic snippet. When I get to the Ebmaj7#11 I might lean on D, but I might also lean on A, or deal with the voice leading between A/G and Ebmaj7#11. I'd do it by ear while keeping the chord tones in the back of my mind.
I hear the next four chords as a similar thing, moving voices against a pedal. If I just played an A against Ebmaj7#11, I might raise it to Bb to bring the suspended sound to the front. After that, it feels to me like the line has crested and needs to move back down, so I might hear G, F# F and then E against Em7.
I hear the Eb7 as having a #11, so I'd probably go with that. Then, I'd simplify. ii V in G (with the Bm7 seen as a sub for Gmaj) resolving, in effect to a VI7. The Dm7 is then a half step approach from above to the C#m7. I don't have a better idea for that than starting a ii V lick in B.
For Dmaj7/E to Cmaj7/E. I usually play the same thing based on my chordal ideas xx 10 9 7 7 to xx 10 9 8 7. Basically, I'm hearing F# to G. If anybody ever signals me to take a third chorus on this tune, I'd have to think about it, but I might just play in D and let the bass and piano make me sound like I know something about harmony.
That brings us to the last 4 bars. Look at the time! I really have to be somewhere!
Sorry. I make the transition from Cmaj7/E to Dbmaj7/E by raising what I just played a half step. I hear that change as a kind of half step modulation.
The next part requires deciphering the voice leading -- and I'm not sure I even have the right changes.
Dbmaj7/Eb contains Eb Ab and C, an Ab triad. Hold that thought.
Bb13b9, the next chord, contains a G triad.
The next chord is Abmaj7#5, which contains a C triad.
There is also an embedded line of Ab G E Eb (the Eb is within the G7#5 at the end).
So, I might think about playing on those triads, or outlining the embedded line, or both.
But, at the same time, the line is I VI7 and then a reharm-ed ii V i to the Cm at the top. To my ear, Fmelmin sounds ok against that ii V
All of the above applies to what I'd try to do at a tempo of maybe 10 bpm.
At a real tempo, I'd probably settle for chord tones (with embellishments to make melody) and the guide lines I could find, as above.
So, is this a "harmonic organization"?
I'm still trying to figure out what that term means -- and google doesn't seem to know.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 07-01-2018 at 07:48 PM.
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reg..some nice Benson licks .. Originally Posted by Reg
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Thanks Wolfin... I use to just record and BS my way through etc...I just watched it again... some interesting things.... I can't seen to help from using patterns with chord patterns , licks etc... There is always a reference with what I played before and after... kinda weird... I can't help myself from making , or at least attempting to make things lock, have that perception of repeat.
Anyway Christian... the everything is modal was trick question... nice call. Functional Music is all based on Ionian mode ... right.
rpjazz... For me the point of harmonic organization... the organization becomes a way to simplify all the changes into just a few type of functioning chords... So I can spatially organize the tune... the Form. I decide or I'm told... what type of organization the tune uses....
Dolphin dance is a three tonic system ... Eb G and B
intro and 1st few bars Ebmaj
The back and forth between Gmaj and Ebmaj.... until right before the E pedal... C#-7 F#7... to Dmaj7/E all Bmaj.
The rest of the tune is use of subs and deceptive resolutions... II V's going to the relative Minor or Sub of the implied target.
So harmonic organization of the tune is three Tonic system... the use of three keys ...three tonic system. That would be the big picture.
If you made a reduction of the tune... picked the main structural elements of the tune... made it as simple as you could.... the basic starting organization... the tune uses three tonics... You could just pick one key and call the others modulations... But when you start breaking down each section and phrases... you find that just a few typical uses of subs and deceptive resolutions, ( II V going to the related minor... instead of implied target) and same deceptive use with function subs. The use of modal interchange... is really just like using embellishment with organization... Harmonic organization.... anyway... It's difficult to pick just one key, and that's part of the beauty of the tune, it uses a simi cool tonal organization.... "have you meet miss jones... Giant steps... Moments Notice.... 3 tonic systems... and it's not in your face... it still feels pretty simple... anyway...
Another example of harmonic organization could be his use of pedals.... the organization is using a pedal. Dolphin uses a few. But you could use triads or any type of chord... too many notes make to hard to hear or even work... But if you used Pedals with the combination of triads... Romantic or modernism... Stravinsky ish.... maybe even Jordon here on the form.... anyway... all the types of organization can be harmonic organization.... Maj/min functional harmony is the basic default system that's been in place for ever...
Yes personally it takes way more time to try and verbally breakdown... I guess it's just easy for me to play different things at fast tempos... because I have my technical skills organized... I don't watch my hands, I look at music and see phrases, chord patterns... all ways to simplify the music. If I'm performing something notated etc... a show or written out arrangement, a part in studio... I might look... or when I want to create that image that I'm really feeling it and struggling to get something magical out.... OK BS, sorry.
I'll make a more formal analysis tomorrow ... try and show harmonic organization examples. My brain is fried. doubles use you up.
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Worldcup is on. Wonderful opportunity to brush up on technique if one likes soccer. If not, even better Originally Posted by Reg
Bring on those scale patterns.
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The bridge to Miss Jones is a lot simpler in the 3-tonic area. Giant steps too. Dolphin Dance includes things like Gmaj7 Ab-7, F-7 G7#5 -- and F7sus D/F F7sus -- and the other pedal sections ... all of which I hear as modulations organized by guide tone. Originally Posted by Reg
But, maybe that means I'm beginning to understand what you mean by "harmonic organization". My, possibly more primitive, descriptor would have been "structure of the tune". If I have finally understood your use of the term, then we would both describe Autumn Leaves and ii V I's alternating in major and minor.
I'm looking forward to your examples.
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Don’t, just don’t. I’m not going to get emotionally involved. The quicker England is out of the tournament the quicker the gigs go back to normal. Originally Posted by Tal_175
Worldcup is on. Wonderful opportunity to brush up on technique if one likes soccer. If not, even better
Bring on those scale patterns.
*bah humbug*
Of course it’s always possible that Southgate of all people might be mindful of the importance of drilling his team at penalties.
Nah don’t be stupid.
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Reg,
Never thought of the 3 tonic aspect of Dolphin Dance.
Bar 1-4 Eb cadence to relative minor
Bar 5-8 Cm cadence to G major
Bar 9-12 G followed by targets to Eb/Cm
Bar 13-16 Cm cadence to G
Bar 17-20 Various G pedal colors
Bar 21-24 Various F pedal colors / anticipation of Eb7 by tri-tone sub A7
Bar 25-28 back to Eb but now as Eb7 like a bVI7 in G major tonal area, Dm7 constant structure chord to C#m7
Bar 29-32 Cadence to B but somewhat in B phrygian/E content
Bar 33-36 Bb pedal colors pointing toward Eb/Cm
So within the 3 tonic thinking B is only marginally referenced and from that vantage point,
I'm not sure how to think of the F pedal chords 21-24.
I always focused on the 1st chord of each 4 bars, G - F7sus - Eb7 - C#m7(Db) - B - Bb
Would be cool to one day read at your level and instantly read that much from what I see and hear.
May not get there but always room for growth. Thanks for your inspiration in that direction.
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That's an interesting analysis. But, for the sake of discussion, I'm going to articulate a different view. Originally Posted by bako
This is a 36 bar tune. By my count, 18 bars, more or less, are in an identifiable tonal center. That is, for 18, or so, of the bars you could solo, without clams, by concentrating on chord tones and the underlying major or minor scale.
It won't work over 12 bars of pedals. First 8 of B section and last 4.
The pedals are mostly, but maybe not entirely, moving triads over bass notes.
For example, Gmaj7 G7sus A/G and Ebmaj7#11/G, could be written as G, F/G, A/G, and Ebmaj7#11 (not a triad there, at least not exactly). If we're thinking about underlying scales, it might be G Ionian, G mixo, Glyddom and Eblyd. But, that Ebma7#11 can also be played as G7sus, which is F/G.
Then, F7sus, D/F (also seen as F7b9 in some charts), F7sus is Eb/F followed by D/F, Eb/F, which is a chromatic movement.
And, thinking tonal center won't work well 25-29, Eb7/ Am7 D7/ Bm7 / E7 Dm7.
The last 4 bars are mostly moving triads again, Db/Eb, G/Eb, C/Eb and then G7#5.
So, it seems to me that this tune is structured partly as shifting tonal centers in major 3rds. The other almost-half is shifting triads over pedal tones, G, F and Eb.
One way to get through the pedal sections is to follow the movement of the individual chord tones within the triads. Gmaj7 G7sus A/G, F/G has a guide tone line of B, C, C#, C (among other ways to see it).
Eb/F, D/F, Eb/F, Em7-A7, ... well, take your pick. Eb, D, Eb, D-C# would be one.
Db/Eb, G/Eb, C/Eb, G7#5 could be Db, D, E, Eb, again, amongst other possibilities.
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The post was my attempt to consider the tune as tri-tonic, something I had never done before.
25-29, Eb7/ Am7 D7/ Bm7 / E7 Dm7
I see this as basically G major, Eb7 as a bVI7 in G.
Dm7 as a constant structure move to C#m7
Another possibility, if I'm thinking ahead, the E7 Dm7 could be V7 Vm7 in A major moving to IIIm7 (C#m7)
which in turn is functioning as IIm7 targeting Bm/E.
Anyway, always loved this song.
How we organize our thoughts influences what we choose to play.
What we play is ultimately what matters.
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tri-tonic? Is that when you try any tone?
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I first encountered this analysis in the old RMMGJ days, and I keep circling back to it (one of these days, I'll actually slow down and play the scales he refers to over the changes ...). He presents the tune in CST terms, in a way that as an explanation I think flows pretty naturally. I think his sense is similar to yours -- It's in Eb/Cmin and maybe sorta Gmaj, with modal regions connecting the tonal regions; it's at the boundary between a purely modal and functional composition and allows for blending the two approaches in solos. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
TOM LIPPINCOTT ARTICLES
John
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Rp, see, what Reg/Bako got at is the most "macro" view.
And again, once you establish that, you can take side trips.
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The melody note on the Eb7 is A, and I hear this chord as Eb7#11. That makes it almost the same chord as the A7 before it, except for the bass note changing and the E note. But, even more, it sounds like a half-step-above chromatic move toward the D7 in the next bar. Originally Posted by bako
That Am7-D7 could be considered the start of a ii V iii VI in G.
The Dm7 is another chromatic, with the surprise being that it's held for a full 2 beats.
Then the only 2 bars of tune that look like B tonal center.
All of that is maybe interesting discussion, but I'm not sure it helps you solo on the tune all that much.
If I had to advise somebody on it, I'd point out the tonal centers, the movement of triads, and suggest that the improviser pay attention to guide tone lines and coloration.
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My point is that I don't see this as a three tonic tune in the same way that Giant Steps is. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I think Bako's analysis is good. I only agree with part of Reg's.
My view is that about half of it is amenable to the usual tonal center based analysis, and the rest needs a different kind of analysis -- as colors created by moving triads against pedal tones.
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Herbie Hancock with this tune and Maiden Voyage takes diatonic harmony and the 11th/suspended sound and put it in a blender...this "sound" was an approval of using these harmonic devices .. and it did just that..we dont even think these chords are out of place at all today..used with augmented and diminished chordal intervals and partials and substitutions he truly did go on a maiden voyage
play Dolphin and Voyage back to back...
here is Hancock sounding with some Bill Evans approach (my take) to his tune
hancock maiden voyage you tube - Bing
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Ha, you got that spot on! All i do is watching every match while drilling the right hand picking on muted strings... I think I'll be the next Al Di Meola after this WC. Originally Posted by Tal_175
Worldcup is on. Wonderful opportunity to brush up on technique if one likes soccer. If not, even better Bring on those scale patterns.
-Christian... The quicker England is out of the tournament the quicker the gigs go back to normal.
Oooops
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Yea... Like I said... you can easily pick a key and use modulation ... But giant steps and the revamping of pretty standard 3 tonic harmonic compositional technique...( from tonal shifts to Dual Modality to eventually polytonality... all compositional tools that had been around for decades from traditional composers. Anyway the early 60's were full of attempts to use these compositional techniques.... Herbie's is cool, like I said because it's not so mechanical and in your face... like Trane.
I just see and hear it as that... doesn't really matter.
Bako... I hear bars 25 -34 as deceptive Bmin... and being parallel minor of the 3rd tonic.... which in typical composition school ... variation or camouflage the 3rd statement of anything etc...
Bar - 25...Eb7... can be sub of A7 or sub v of implied Dmaj...
Bar - 26 -29...A-7 is relative sub of implied Dmaj....or subdominant bVII of 3rd tonic "B", ( like bars 21 - 24 bVII of G)... There are to many possibilities to connect all the possibilities. again the last or 3rd tonic.... deceptive, camouflage etc...
Bar - 29 -34... all deceptive 3rd tonic.."B".
I can get into all the modal harmonic movement uses.... but who cares.... I'm not sure it makes any solo better.... It works for me as a composer... I dig layers of compositional organization ... and the more the better, especially if it's not in your face, and there are more than just on possible analysis... and the results... can all lead to same basic improve... or not'
I get it that most want a simple approach to be able to play a tune within a short amount of work. But all of the techniques are just like embellishing a chord tone.... using some upper structures over basic root motion... triads used in similar techniques. Having multible organizations going on all the same time.... Why does one want to play a tune? I like to have fun and interact with other musicians. Take risks ... try not to crash and burn.... see how long we can hang.... entertain the audience. I generally verbally also talk during gigs.... YEA that was Cool ... all the usual verbal ship.... But when someone pulls something offf... I love to verbally bring audiences in and let them know that something really just happened.... He might not pull that off next time....even though.... probably could and does almost all the time.
Anyway... that why when I recorded that old vid of playing Dolphin.... I extended that last tonic , almost to the point of being an interlude...
It is like the big Dominant like target of a 3 tonic system.... the big resolution etc...
I could play it different next time someone calls the tune.....probably will.
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I'd analyze 25-29 thusly .. Originally Posted by Reg
The first chord is actually Eb7#11, Eb G A Db, which looks a lot like A7b5. It leads to a D7. Tricky, but it looks a lot like a ii V or II V. Next chords are Bm7 and E7, which then look like the related iii VI.
The four bars have some smoke and mirrors, but the underlying logic looks like a ii V iii VI in Gmajor.
The change to the ii V in B looks a lot like the second part of Giant Steps, which is a series of ii V I', where in each case the chord after the I is basically the 7th chord a half step down, preceded by its iim.
The next four bars are Dmaj7/E to Cmaj/E (twice). I guess I could be convinced that's sort of a Bm9/E to a Cmaj7/E. In fact, maybe I could convince myself that the Cmaj7/E is really Gtriad/E and see that in the key of Bm. Which makes the 6 bars basically Bmajor to Bminor.
That might even work. If you played B aeolian you'd sound consonant over the Dmaj and lydian over the Cmaj7, as long as you carefully avoided the C#. Overall, it seems like a stretch to think B-anything in this part of the tune. Not impossible, just a stretch.
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Well we managed to do it.... Originally Posted by christianm77
Turns out if you practice something you get good at it.
Also, as Yoda said, failure is a great teacher. Since 96, Southgate (Eng Manager) has been THAT guy who missed his penalty at the Euro '96 costing us the competition. Imagine having to deal with that. The thing is despite that stigma, England have always been awful at penalty shootouts, and I stopped watching them for this reason.
Well he learned from his mistakes, but the heartening thing is that he was able to coach the younger players to avoid the same mistakes he made. Maybe there is hope for progress from one generation to the next, and history is not condemned to repeat.
Anyway, the English world cup campaign drags on and continues to fuck up my gigs.
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The interesting thing about the English psyche (as opposed to the American I think) is that we don't really like to win at things too much.
If we ever actually start winning international football tournaments with regularity, I reckon everyone will lose interest.
It's like the Olympics. 2012 everyone was amazed by our ability to punch above our weigh. By Brazil, everyone had completely lost interest. It got a bit boring.
We have to start sucking at least a bit for the whole English 'Dunkirk spirit' narrative to kick in...
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Absolutely, they hate success. As soon as someone gets lauded for something articles start appearing tearing them down, intruding into their lives and personal relationships... anything sordid or titillating because good news is no news.
Also it 'keeps them in their place'. The Brits love all that, it's one of their not so endearing qualities.
(Except the queen, of course. Anyone else is fair game but the Queen you n-e-v-e-r touch)
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BTW on Dolphin dance... Without wading through what has already been posted, so I might be repeating some points.
Harmony aside, one thing that strikes me looking at the chart is how motivic this tune is. It interesting the way Herbie breaks up the motif rhythmically to vary the repetition, but it only moves away from this material in the last 10 bars - that section always feels like a release to me. I can kind of see a relationship in the material at the Eb7#11 bar to an inversion of the main motif.
At B1, we have the motif transposed three times in major thirds forming a B-G-Eb augmented triad on the first note... So there's your tritonic system right there.....
Now some mention has been made of how this tune is related to Shiny Stockings. I find this hard to hear?
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I really enjoyed English football, from days of Terry McDermott up to Hoddle/ Waddle era. It was a pleasure. Then it blended with continental approach, which equals boring, especially in Spanish/ Barcelona endless passes version. Yuck! Don't get me wrong, it is still much better and almost enjoyable compared to our local version. Originally Posted by christianm77
So, in last decade, I switched preference to German kind of game.
IMO, money and FIFA's mob deals can make wonders for England, but in reality, based on quality of their game, USA is much closer to win World Cup, once they again manage to pass qualifications.
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