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Well, after the second time it sent up a flare :-)
Originally Posted by jordanklemons
When I said I got the rest, I did. Honest. It was the first bit that was in question.
I may well do that. But I would want to do a tune at a time. I think I'd get a bit impatient with anything much less.My best answer to this is that if you're genuinely curious to learn more, you should come hang in the study group.
I'd hope so. Changing every chord would be absurd.And I have zero issue with it being a root position triad. I actually love those sounds. But often times there may be more options.
See, my hesitation in all this is that I see nothing wrong with Fm7. I could use all kinds of things over it, least of all the good ol' Ab scale. What concerns me with the triad thing is that it reduces everything to three notes. Or four by adding another one. I keep coming back to this and saying it to you - isn't it limiting? I mean, instead of just playing something nice over the Fm7, why change the way it's perceived? Will changing its perception radically change what one produces as a solo? For the better, that is, presumably!an F minor triad over an F-7 chord is still being interpreted in my mind not as some type of F minor mode, but as the triad with functioning tension notes around it.
Thanks for offering that. I'll have a play with it. I don't really do intellectual, as you know :-)Without TOO MUCH sitting and shedding to make sure I love it, just with the intellectual understanding I have of the tune and melodic triads... I would likely use something like this for the 1st 8 bars for a fairly 'in' and 'traditional' vibe. We could get more experimental to make it more modern if we wanted... but this would likely be my starting point...
|| (Ab)/2 | (Db)/2 | (C)/b2 | (C-)/4 | (F-)/2 | (F)/2 | (G)/7 | (E-)/4 | % ||
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04-13-2018 01:53 PM
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Well for the most part, we do change every chord. It's all about learning to understanding tonality and tension resolution relationships... which are affected by chord changes. It's definitely possible to lump things together into "keys" (which ironically enough is something we're planning to look at next month with rhythm changes), but it's not really the point for me. But definitely a possibility. Originally Posted by ragman1
"That which diminishes constraint, diminishes strength." - Stravinsky Originally Posted by ragman1
Isn't it limiting. Oh yeah. I find freedom within limitation... by exploring one tiny piece within a puzzle... learning from it, and then moving on to the next tiny piece.
To want to be able to play within all of an F minor scale is fine. All I'm talking about doing is breaking it down into something smaller (and in view, deeper) than that, exploring it to find all the possibilities, and then having a better and more internalized feeling of what's possible when we say something like "f minor scale". Again, I take you back to the listening experiment video. Was I playing in F melodic minor scale? Sure... I suppose. Couldn't I just ignore all this and play around inside that scale? Again... yeah. I've never discounted that. But learning to organize it all around that C major triad completely changes the way everything works in my ear. It allowed me to develop a whole series of voicings that otherwise might not make sense. It allows me to phrase lines specific to that. It allows me the ability to arrange voicings for my horn section that accentuate the melody the way I want it to be accentuated. And so much more that it would be absurd to type it out.
You asking me that is really no different than if a young kid asked you why you bother learning F melodic minor. Don't you find it limiting to only let yourself play within those 7 notes? Why can't he just close his eyes and play whatever comes to mind? Wouldn't that allow for more freedom of expression and more possibility within his improvisation? Doesn't it close you and your mind and your ears off from using the other 5 non-diatonic notes? This is the same reasoning. I'm sure we've all come across musicians who feel this way... that learning theory and scales will only chip away at our ability to feel free and play in our own unique, personal way. I know I've met those players... many of them. That's fine if they want to approach that way. Interestingly, I've rarely met someone in their 40s and up who STILL feels that way. Most of the older folks I know who used to feel that way now regret it because they've plateaued and don't have anywhere else to go.
A better way to approach this questioning might be to not get too wrapped up in theory and in fear and instead listen to my playing. Does it sound limited to you? Check out my album, which is very modern and has improv, composition, and arranging... all of which is putting this "theory" on display. Check out my solo guitar playing or my trio playing based around standards for a more "relatable" view of what I'm doing. Or better yet, forget about me and listen to Stefon. He's been at this stuff for decades. Does he sound limited to you? He doesn't sound that way to me. He's one of the most exciting soloists to listen to for me, his ear is scary insane, and he can fit in perfectly into all sorts of situations from old school standards stuff (Kenny Barron) all the way up to the hip-hop influence stuff (Robert Glasper) and into the heavy "straight-ahead" modern stuff (San Fransisco Jazz Collective).
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So, I guess this stuff is really affecting me.
Last night, just before I fell asleep - which is always a time when my brain wants to make non-linear connections - I had a very vivid image where the melodic progression and the harmonic progression were two currents in a stream. Sometimes they ran together, and sometimes they diverged, but they were always dependent on one another, and a change in one would affect the other.
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Swooooooooooooooon Originally Posted by Boston Joe
This is near identical to an revelatory image that came to me once as well. Such a great way to see the two structures and how they dance with each other.
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It's kinda crazy. A-ha moments everywhere. The only down side is I've got so much stuff to do, I can't work on it as much as I want to. (Probably a good thing. I'd become a hermit.)
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Thx .. I'll look into this with intent of maybe putting some of that onto Autumn Leaves. As I said yesterday, that tune has been kicking my butt by sounding boring and bland when I play it ever since I first came across it some 20 years ago Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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The melody of Autumn Leaves A section is basically a series of quadrads, no?
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Now you mention it, I guess it is .. 1236, no? ... except chords change on that last note, so maybe we need something else there once once you hit Am and that c in the melody? (I tried just repeating the quadrad over Am and then D just to hear it .. It could be a lot worse but .. Originally Posted by christianm77
)
I dunno, I've faked it on occasion but never made it really work for me. At first 20 years ago I just played over an E-minor, which isn't wrong but very bland. Usually when someone gives a lesson it focuses on that 3rd 7th stair case (C to F# to B to E etc), which to my ears borders on annoying .. da da dum .. du du dam .. da da dum .. du du dam
Then I've been doing my best to hit altered sounds
Meh ... I don't know .. some tunes just play themselves as there is obvious tension and they modulate and just take you on a ride .. but somehow I've come to grips with this one (and here I am venting )
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No, it's not. It's not 'limitation' in the abstract, it's limiting in comparison with having 7 notes instead of three or four. Not just being stuck to the Ab scale but also all the possible alternatives. Originally Posted by jordanklemons
Absolutely, if you're stuck to CST and all that and haven't any flexibility and imagination. But you must always have the basics whether you abide by them or not.that learning theory and scales will only chip away at our ability to feel free and play in our own unique, personal way
I've tried your triads for ATTYA. Very nice, the notes are right, they nail it, but having only those notes inhibited me. I'm NOT saying this to back up what I said before (I wouldn't do that) but what I thought would happen, did. Instead of a palette before me on the board there were just those notes and I felt hemmed in, constrained.
I have to say, I see no sense of freedom in it at all, quite the contrary. It might be a wonderful guide for those who don't know what to play over ATTYA or other tunes but there's no question it stopped me in my tracks. It was like being disabled!
Oh, not a chance in hell of that!A better way to approach this questioning might be to not get too wrapped up in theory and in fear
The SH music was great, especially that first slow one. Some very nice sounds coming from there.
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I think the limitation is what's good about it - forces me to play things I wouldn't normally play.
TBH limitless freedom is quite stressful. What do I practice? What do I play?
Even 7 notes on each chord is a lot of possibilities.
A self imposed limitation is often the best way to punch through it.
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No such thing. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I'll rephrase - I find applying small limited useful bits of information helps me avoid these usual scenarios: Originally Posted by ragman1
1) face indecision when given lots of choices
2) end up inevitably playing my normal licks
3) playing too many notes
I can't remember who said art is as much about subtraction as addition. This seems to be along those lines.
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Granted, I'm still processing my ah-hah moment on Wednesday, but I see the value in Jordan's method being just learning to hear in a different way. Sticking to four notes over one chord really forced me to listen to the relationship and also to be able to separate the two. I've always understood intellectually that you could do things this way, but actually doing it, listening to that damn E/b2 against the D-6 for something like 20 minutes straight and hearing it become the tonic. That's the value for me.
I'm sure there are people who can hear that way without having to do that. And I'm sure there are other ways of being able to unlock those sounds. So maybe this thing is not of much value to them.
I do have a question for ragman1, though: Do you think that maybe the fact that you felt "constrained and hemmed in" might not be a sign that there's a challenge there for you? Maybe you feel that way because you're relying too much on certain movements that make staying within a small cell difficult. I'm lousy with this kind of limitation. It's really hard for me. But my phrasing always gets better when I do these kinds of things.
I took a couple of lessons with Jordan last year, and he tried to introduce me to this stuff. After working with it for a while, I felt like my playing had actually deteriorated. In retrospect, I think I was just not ready for it. I wasn't hearing the quads as their own thing - related to the harmony but distinct from it. Now that I can hear it, I think I'm okay with trying to limit my playing in this way. I do expect that I'll feel hemmed in for a while, but ultimately, I think it'll improve my playing.
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It's not choices in that sense. You're playing, there's a chord, you've no time to consider choices! You hit it, and carry on. Playing 'normal licks' is almost the same thing, you've established a pattern on a certain chord or sequence. If you're awake that won't happen. As for playing too many notes... don't! Originally Posted by christianm77
I don't know :-)
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I don't see it as a challenge, something to be overcome. I see it as it is, too limited a spectrum. Like someone saying 'Paint that lovely sunset with only three colours'. You can, but it's not going to amount to much. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
I do hope you're right.I do expect that I'll feel hemmed in for a while, but ultimately, I think it'll improve my playing.
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a trained artist could do pretty well with Blue, Yellow, and Red. They can mix and match the 3 to make almost any color they want. an amateur would need a lot of paint and a lot of time to figure it out, so they go out and buy all the colors at the art shop so they're not limited. Originally Posted by ragman1
I dunno, I think limits are great for me personally
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So sorry Lobomov. I remember reading your question about autumn leaves earlier, but there were so many little mini-conversations going on in this thread that I lost track and forgot that I never got back to you. Originally Posted by Lobomov
Thx .. I'll look into this with intent of maybe putting some of that onto Autumn Leaves. As I said yesterday, that tune has been kicking my butt by sounding boring and bland when I play it ever since I first came across it some 20 years ago
I once wrote out a melodic progression for AL. I don't remember exactly what it was at the moment. The melody DOES appear to be composed in quadratonics (which is actually quite common)... but as you pointed out, that's a little deceptive as the chord changes for the last note, so it's maybe a little different than we might expect.
I think I remember utilizing a lot of root structure stuff... as well as simple triads like a C major triad over the first A-7 chord (if we're thinking of the tune in E minor). Some of the F#ø7 I found seemed to be behaving more like A minor triads in the melody, and some like F#º triads. But again, the tune is so simple as it is, I don't recall a lot of complexity with the triads I found looking at the melody. Doesn't mean we couldn't substitute other tonalities in place of the more "basic" ones. But the melody doesn't necessarily organize itself in that way.
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Ok, well again, I'm finding it tough to keep track of where you are and how you're thinking and feeling. Sometimes you make it seem like you're really into this stuff... other times, not at all. That's cool. I'm not here to sell anyone on anything or convince anyone to give up anything or force them to try something they don't like. Just wanted to let people who were interested know that a study group on this stuff exists and offer the link to rent this month's study guide looking at Bird's riff also for free. I feel like I've attempted to respond to your feelings regarding the limitation in multiple posts and videos showing that it's not that case at all... with my own playing, with Stefon's, with blowing over Another You, and with the listening experiment where I'm playing through full 7-note "scales" but where the C triad is being used as the stable resolution notes and the others as tension and passing notes. Originally Posted by ragman1
No, it's not. It's not 'limitation' in the abstract, it's limiting in comparison with having 7 notes instead of three or four. Not just being stuck to the Ab scale but also all the possible alternatives.
Absolutely, if you're stuck to CST and all that and haven't any flexibility and imagination. But you must always have the basics whether you abide by them or not.
I've tried your triads for ATTYA. Very nice, the notes are right, they nail it, but having only those notes inhibited me. I'm NOT saying this to back up what I said before (I wouldn't do that) but what I thought would happen, did. Instead of a palette before me on the board there were just those notes and I felt hemmed in, constrained.
I have to say, I see no sense of freedom in it at all, quite the contrary. It might be a wonderful guide for those who don't know what to play over ATTYA or other tunes but there's no question it stopped me in my tracks. It was like being disabled!
Oh, not a chance in hell of that!
The SH music was great, especially that first slow one. Some very nice sounds coming from there.
It's cool. If you have a thing that works for you and you don't want to mess with that, than I say stick with what you know that works for you. There's only 12 notes... anything that helps a musician organize them to convey what they wish to musically is fantastic in my opinion.
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I felt the same thing when I began too, Joe. Felt like taking a step back. But I liken it to firing a bow and arrow. The only way to propel the arrow forward is to pull it backwards away from the direction we want it to go and to create tension and potential energy there. Then when it's released, it's able to fly forward with an enormous momentum. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
Another neat benefit that you and I probably haven't discussed much if at all is the overlap between the melodic side of things and the harmonic. Just like the piano player, we can develop voicings by putting the harmonic structure in the "left hand" and the melodic structure in the "right hand". So for the E major/D- chord you're talking about... we might see some voicings like...
**I'm transposing all of this up a whole step so we can use our open 6th string to imitate a bass player hitting the low root note... so this is now F# major/E-
0X5[322]
0X5[676]
0.10X[11.11.9]
Notice we have the melodic triad in the top 3 voices for each of these, and then some of the basic harmonic information (R and m3) always underneath?
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Who needs yellow and red?? Check out Picasso's blue period Originally Posted by joe2758
google image search if you're not already familiar with that period of his work. It's pretty amazing. Though he DOES use a couple other colors from time to time in some of them. So maybe you're more correct to add in the other two.
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exactly. so you spend a period working with just blue. get everything you can out of it. then your choice of blue for your next painting will that much more nuanced
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For me it focuses the setting, which is refreshing to the two usual things that are thrown out. Originally Posted by christianm77
Often advice is a scale (a mixolydian or a melodic minor of sort) which ends up making you run up and down aimlessly or at best from chordtone to chordtone .. which sound a lot better on paper than real life.
or
Advice is chord tones .. If we look at AL the usual stuff thrown out is play the 7th chords. So you practice those 7th chords in all positions, but finding music in that is again not all that simple.
In the end it is all about ear .. usually I'm connecting licks and trying to make them stick to my ear using the above more as a map for orientation than something useful .. the limitation here might be enough to actually start finding licks in the suggested material .. or it might not, but so far I like it
You didn't miss anything in this thread, I brought up AL as a suggestion for future study in the facebook group. Originally Posted by jordanklemons
Originally Posted by jordanklemons
Thx .. already that helps a litte .. I thought C/2 .. So after hitting that c instead of just taking the go to descending b a g f# .. going down and playing an ascending d e g f# sounds more fresh (and I know that I just approached the 5th of A-7 and the 7th of D7 from a neighboring note, but that is not how I found those notes)
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I’m talking about practice Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I practice very little :-)
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