Chord Tones on the Down Beat?

[Boston Joe]

I think I might be the Mr. Burns of jazz guitar. Certainly turning into a grumpy old git as I get older, so my work colleagues keep telling me.

Hm. I can't decide if I'm the Moe Syzlak or the Nelson Munz of jazz guitar.

[christianm77]

Dang, I see it now. No wonder Zucker called me a nay-sayer.

[grahambop]

Dang, I see it now. No wonder Zucker called me a nay-sayer.

At least you’ve got the bit between your teeth.

[mr. beaumont]

I cannot unsee the horse now.

[MarkRhodes]

An interesting alternative POV on the whole bebop thing is this - whose licks were Dizzy and Bird playing?

Bird was playing Lester Young's! ;o)

Bird also used things from the Klose book of daily saxophone exercises. (Paul Desmond noticed this in a line of Bird's and asked him about in a radio interview that's been posted hereabouts several times.) Earl Hines had Bird and Diz in his band at one point and later said they brought music books to gigs and, in between sets, searched them for things to use in the next set.

[christianm77]

Bird was playing Lester Young's! ;o)

In 1943, for sure:

Bird also used things from the Klose book of daily saxophone exercises. (Paul Desmond noticed this in a line of Bird's and asked him about in a radio interview that's been posted hereabouts several times.) Earl Hines had Bird and Diz in his band at one point and later said they brought music books to gigs and, in between sets, searched them for things to use in the next set.

I think it may have been you that brought this to my attention, in fact.

[destinytot]

I cannot unsee the horse now.

Triggered.

[Philco]

I cannot unsee the horse now.

What are the odds of someone doing a sketch of themselves playing the guitar and having that image mistaken for the profile of a horse? Really what are the odds?

Was the artist thinking of a horse whilst they were drawing a person playing the guitar?

If you said to someone "ok I want you to draw a guy playing the guitar but I want whoever is looking at that picture to actually see a horse"
You would think they were crazy and that this was a futile task.

And yet it has been done.

If you look at Christian's avatar whilst listening to the theme from "The Twilight Zone" ......things get even stranger.

[christianm77]

The horse = chords, the guitar player = scales

[MarkRhodes]

I thought it was a horse the first time I saw it. It's only from reading this thread that I realized it is a drawing of a guy playing a guitar.

[rodolfoguitarra]

This is the Barry Harris approach to practicing scales. Observations:
1-There is a strong tendency to put chord tones on downbeat.
2-When he puts non-chord tones on the downbeat he ends the phrase putting the chord tones on downbeats again (maybe it is a good way of practice to not sound ´´correct and mechanical´´ all the time).
3-He never puts chromatic tones on downbeat.

[christianm77]

"Why do we need to practice that stuff? Just use your ears!"



Argument settled.

[rodolfoguitarra]

Sometimes if we analyze certain phrases in relation to the chord symbols the chord tones will not fall on down beat apparently. Nevertheless, in the example below there is a tritone superimpositon where the chord tones of F#7 bebop scale falls on the downbeat. This example is the Barry Harris book, I think it is a Charlie Parker lick.

[christianm77]

Sometimes if we analyze certain phrases in relation to the chord symbols the chord tones will not fall on down beat apparently. Nevertheless, in the example below there is a tritone superimpositon where the chord tones of F#7 bebop scale falls on the downbeat. This example is the Barry Harris book, I think it is a Charlie Parker lick.

Well obviously - chord tones of C7 and F#7 are not the same, let alone Gm7! So, yeah, the original chord symbols are kind of irrelevant.

We are only thinking C7-F, and applying whatever subs we want to that in the line, tritone subs, backdoor/minor, arpeggios of the F#7 scale etc etc...

In terms of what the thing is with reference to the underlying chord symbols - well, shall we leave that as a tedious theory assignment for the jazz college students who can get all excited about the #9s and b5s? ;-)

[rodolfoguitarra]

Well obviously - chord tones of C7 and F#7 are not the same, let alone Gm7! So, yeah, the original chord symbols are kind of irrelevant.

Well, it is not soooo obvious in lots of discussions I saw on forums, it is good to remember or to explain to others who does not know


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[christianm77]

Well, it is not soooo obvious in lots of discussions I saw on forums, it is good to remember or to explain to others who does not know


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Ha i did rewrite cos i thought that came across as a little dickish

[christianm77]

OTOH there are people playing jazz who can't tell the difference between the chord tones in an F#7 and a C7 chord?

Man, they have to be guitar players.

[rodolfoguitarra]

Then went back to both Of my Hal Crook books (How to Improvise and Ready, Set, Improvise). Same thing.

Hal Galper, Bert Ligon, Hal Crook, Peter Bernstein, Randy Vincent's Cellular Approach...

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I'm a fan of Hal Crook books, but I can not remember to see him talking about chord tones on downbeat in his books. In fact today was reading the book Read, Aim, Improvise (page 150) and I found this:

[Robertkoa]

You would generally have a gradient scale of 'strictness' of Improvisation depending on Style.

If you listen to Songs, Vocal Songs I mean you will find a very high % of Chord Tones & Extensions throughout.

Improv..generally fewer chord tones - Blues , Country, Rock.

Jazz - more Chromatic...fewer chord tones in improv by %.

Gradient might be firstly - using 1 or 2 chord Tones at every phrase ending which will be a Downbeat on final Chord ( considering any ' ands' after downbeat to be lead ins to next phrase ).

Then a Chord Tone on every Cadence at 4

Then every 1 of every cadence and every 4 .


Then a Chord Tone on every Chord Change on 1

Then a Chord Tone on every 4....

Then every 1 and 4 ...

Building to the surprisingly strict BeBop Rhythmic Paint by Numbers approach of chord tone every downbeat ?

At least syncopate ...right ?

Then don't syncopate chord tones on every downbeat ...who played strictly like that ?

[rodolfoguitarra]

I'm studying bass, and I foind this really interesting webpage The Studybass Note Choice Pyramid | Studybass Fundamentals Three | StudyBass
The author really emphasize the importance of the strong notes on the strong beats, and weak notes on the weak beats. He analyses a James Jamerson line to demonstrate that 90% of the line is constructed using chord tones on strong beats, and scale and chromatic notes on weak beats.

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[Alter]

Placing chord tones on donwbeats is a big part of studying bebop scales. Do you think about it? Not really, maybe in the beginning. Like regular lines, you just practice the scales and phrases till they become part of your playing. I think it really helps with clearing up any chromaticism in ones playing and developing the ability to outline chord progressions.

[christianm77]

It's like any practice thing - strict and scientific.... In the wilds of actual music? Well hopefully all that strict practice supports you....

[rodolfoguitarra]

Kurt Rosenwinkel about this subject. It seens true for him.

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