Poll: How far have you made with the Richie Zellon's course? (vol 1)

[AlsoRan]

I started it with great expectations and didn't make it past the first few lessons. I'm not sure why. I know I didn't like the pedantic nature of his fingerings. I play contra bass and fiddle and use my pinky a lot. I already sort have my own way of getting around based on arpeggios and his boxes seemed so vertical and boxed in.

But I'm sure the system is fine and any shortcoming was in my own approach, not his.

kofblz,
I did a poor job of really understanding the instruction he has for fingerings. I thought I could just go on using my own fingerings and it hindered me badly. I just did not have the time or mental energy to learn his system. But hell, I did not really know my own!

I recently went back to his book and I can see the benefits of using his fingerings above all others. The main selling point is you can use the basic ideas on all modes, arpeggios and scales and it can tie them together. I still struggle with knowing my intervals and this looks as though it can finally help me get past my problem and hopefully give my the final thing I need to be able to play changes.

[Maroonblazer]

kofblz,
I did a poor job of really understanding the instruction he has for fingerings. I thought I could just go on using my own fingerings and it hindered me badly. I just did not have the time or mental energy to learn his system. But hell, I did not really know my own!

I recently went back to his book and I can see the benefits of using his fingerings above all others. The main selling point is you can use the basic ideas on all modes, arpeggios and scales and it can tie them together. I still struggle with knowing my intervals and this looks as though it can finally help me get past my problem and hopefully give my the final thing I need to be able to play changes.

I started his course nearly a year ago and worked my way up through module 5 over the course of about 8-9 months. He means it when he says there's more material than most/any beginner/intermediate player can absorb in one month. I think he even refers to it as graduate-level material, which seems accurate.

I'm coming from a piano background and always struggled to make sense of the fretboard. I never studied any particular approach, e.g. CAGED, so the fingering system he uses - heptatonic - is my first. I absolutely love it. It's the first time I've been able to organize the fretboard in a way that makes sense to me.

By the time I completed module 5 I was frustrated that the theory I was learning wasn't reflected in my guitar* playing as much as I would've liked, so I've started studying privately with Richie. This has paid off in 3 ways:

1. He's helped me realize that I didn't really absorb some of the earlier modules. It's easy for me to fool myself into thinking I've got something down, when in fact I don't. So he's got me going back through some of the earlier material and reinforcing it.
2. A big part of his approach is having you compose written solos over jazz blues where the rhythms and note types (e.g, chord tone, passing tone, neighboring tone, approaches, 2 or 3 note enclosures, etc) are specified for you, and it's up to you to choose the right notes that satisfy what's specified. You'd think it would be impossible to make any wrong choices given how much is specified, but it absolutely is. So having his guidance in terms of better or worse note choices that are idiomatic to bebop has been invaluable.
3. It's been said on this forum endlessly but, if you're starting out like I am, having a teacher is invaluable. If nothing else, much like a personal trainer at the gym, you know you're accountable to someone else. That's a huge motivator and I'm putting in more practice time each week than I ever did when I was studying alone.

*My facility on the keyboard is much better than guitar, having played piano for decades. When my fretting (left) hand is exhausted I jump over to the piano and apply what I'm learning there. I can come up with genuine bebop lines like I never could before. It's so fun. That tells me his approach works, I just need to also continue working on my fretboard technique.

[AlsoRan]

I started his course nearly a year ago and worked my way up through module 5 over the course of about 8-9 months. He means it when he says there's more material than most/any beginner/intermediate player can absorb in one month. I think he even refers to it as graduate-level material, which seems accurate.

I'm coming from a piano background and always struggled to make sense of the fretboard. I never studied any particular approach, e.g. CAGED, so the fingering system he uses - heptatonic - is my first. I absolutely love it. It's the first time I've been able to organize the fretboard in a way that makes sense to me.

By the time I completed module 5 I was frustrated that the theory I was learning wasn't reflected in my guitar* playing as much as I would've liked, so I've started studying privately with Richie. This has paid off in 3 ways:

1. He's helped me realize that I didn't really absorb some of the earlier modules. It's easy for me to fool myself into thinking I've got something down, when in fact I don't. So he's got me going back through some of the earlier material and reinforcing it.
2. A big part of his approach is having you compose written solos over jazz blues where the rhythms and note types (e.g, chord tone, passing tone, neighboring tone, approaches, 2 or 3 note enclosures, etc) are specified for you, and it's up to you to choose the right notes that satisfy what's specified. You'd think it would be impossible to make any wrong choices given how much is specified, but it absolutely is. So having his guidance in terms of better or worse note choices that are idiomatic to bebop has been invaluable.
3. It's been said on this forum endlessly but, if you're starting out like I am, having a teacher is invaluable. If nothing else, much like a personal trainer at the gym, you know you're accountable to someone else. That's a huge motivator and I'm putting in more practice time each week than I ever did when I was studying alone.

*My facility on the keyboard is much better than guitar, having played piano for decades. When my fretting (left) hand is exhausted I jump over to the piano and apply what I'm learning there. I can come up with genuine bebop lines like I never could before. It's so fun. That tells me his approach works, I just need to also continue working on my fretboard technique.

Thanks for the great feedback! I definitely agree with your opinion on the fingering. I can't believe how ignorant I was to underestimate my finger regions in regard to the intervals of the notes! Like you, I did not really absorb the material on a deep level, thinking I could skip around like I did in school as a young man.

Once I have the fingerings fully integrated, I may dive back in with Richie since I am much more advanced in my understanding of what he is trying to do. But man, getting these fingerings down will help with all of the instructional material that I have because I will be better able to navigate the fretboard.

Happy Holidays to you!

[DonnyGuitarWatson]

Well actually I didn't finish, but that was only because Richie suggested I shifted over to his new course, Arpeggio Frameworks for Melodic Targeting after about I think module 7. The new course uses the techniques covered in Vol 1 and applies it to Jazz Standards, so I now have a series of solos I can apply to Tune Up, Afternoon in Paris and Satin Doll and I've just completed my first for Autumn Leaves. It's not fast, but that's probably me and it does accelerate as you go. It's not quite what I'd call improvisation yet, but it's getting closer all the time.

Worth mentioning I also do private lessons and that has been invaluable. Completely agree on that. I thought I was much more advanced than I realised I really was.

[SevenStringJazz]

Hello everyone,

I'm currently nearly through the assignments for Minor Blues (pages 90s range) in Volume 1. I've taken a long slow path through this material and worked it out in several keys, recording myself doing the Bebop calisthenics, playing Richie's Etudes, my rhythm templates, etc.

i'll follow up with a much longer review later but suffice it to say I think this is an excellent method that really breaks down the "science" behind playing Bebop guitar well. There are many different ways to approach learning jazz guitar and even how you apply this material.

[AdroitMage]

Why???

[SevenStringJazz]

Why???

What specifically does your “Why???” pertain to? Are you asking why I worked these musical elements out in multiple keys and recorded that work? If so here are some reasons:

1. The Bebop Etudes provided by Ritchie contain many examples of classic Bop-based blues vocabulary. Some of it is challenging to get together on guitar and play fluently with musical phrasing at tempo against a backing track. This helps develop good Jazz improv language phrases so why “leave this gold on the table” when it’s provided in such a digestible form?
2. Similarly, the Bebop Calisthenics help develop fingerboard fluency specific to the Bop idiom and train the ear to hear the various musical aspects (i.e. non-harmonic tones, neighboring notes, passing tones, approach notes, enclosures, etc.) introduced as the chapters progress and developed across various modes using the specific scale/arpeggio fingerings and fingering models taught in the course.
3. Related to 1. and 2., the centerpiece of Vol 1. are the student’s development of Rhythm Templates which are basically writing your “own vocabulary” using very specific rhythmic and melodic constraints using elements specific to each lesson. Rhythm Templates are composed using the notation and principles described next in 4. They are detailed and very granular approach to developing your own sense of Bebop improv language on guitar and are meant to be moveable to any key given the specific indicated fingering patterns/model.
4. The courses utilizes a notation termed Intervalic Script that once learned enables the player to systematically transpose musical phrases using the after-mentioned scale/arpeggio fingerings, combined with the elements mentioned in 2. Being able to quickly transpose between keys, especially in blues forms in an important skill to become an advanced jazz guitarist. Richie’s method is designed to enable doing this, so why not take the time to build it into one’s jazz guitar foundational skill set?
5. Recording against backing tracks gets a step closer to playing with other musicians (especially given the software available these days) and allows the student to self-critique their note accuracy, tone, intonation, phrasing, etc.

Does this help?

[garybaldy]

What specifically does your “Why???” pertain to? Are you asking why I worked these musical elements out in multiple keys and recorded that work? If so here are some reasons:

1. The Bebop Etudes provided by Ritchie contain many examples of classic Bop-based blues vocabulary. Some of it is challenging to get together on guitar and play fluently with musical phrasing at tempo against a backing track. This helps develop good Jazz improv language phrases so why “leave this gold on the table” when it’s provided in such a digestible form?
2. Similarly, the Bebop Calisthenics help develop fingerboard fluency specific to the Bop idiom and train the ear to hear the various musical aspects (i.e. non-harmonic tones, neighboring notes, passing tones, approach notes, enclosures, etc.) introduced as the chapters progress and developed across various modes using the specific scale/arpeggio fingerings and fingering models taught in the course.
3. Related to 1. and 2., the centerpiece of Vol 1. are the student’s development of Rhythm Templates which are basically writing your “own vocabulary” using very specific rhythmic and melodic constraints using elements specific to each lesson. Rhythm Templates are composed using the notation and principles described next in 4. They are detailed and very granular approach to developing your own sense of Bebop improv language on guitar and are meant to be moveable to any key given the specific indicated fingering patterns/model.
4. The courses utilizes a notation termed Intervalic Script that once learned enables the player to systematically transpose musical phrases using the after-mentioned scale/arpeggio fingerings, combined with the elements mentioned in 2. Being able to quickly transpose between keys, especially in blues forms in an important skill to become an advanced jazz guitarist. Richie’s method is designed to enable doing this, so why not take the time to build it into one’s jazz guitar foundational skill set?
5. Recording against backing tracks gets a step closer to playing with other musicians (especially given the software available these days) and allows the student to self-critique their note accuracy, tone, intonation, phrasing, etc.

Does this help?

When a post does not include a quote I assume it to be in response to the OP.

[SevenStringJazz]

When a post does not include a quote I assume it to be in response to the OP.

Thanks for the clarification! Haven't posted on this forum in a while so still I'm still fine-tuning the decorum.

In any case, was going to share points 1-5 above anyway. To further elaborate on some of the questions/issues raised by the OP ...

Prior to doing Vol. 1, I had pursued Jazz guitar off and on for close to 40 years. Private lessons with a local pro, studying from various books, learning tunes from the RB or by ear. plenty of years where I didn't play jazz guitar at all due to family commitments, work or personal crises.

Played with a couple of different big bands, local jazz workshop ensembles, and more recently, a quartet that downsized to a trio for most gigs. these experiences "playing out" led to a lot of grinding just to get the tunes together at a less than satisfying level. I figured out that a lot of this frustration had to do with not having established a systematic approach to applying Jazz Harmony and specifically Bebop to the guitar as well as having a framework for melodic targeting that makes it possible to improvise fluently.

This is where Richie's course really comes in to address deficiencies. I have all the books from both volumes and have looked ahead enough to see where things are going. Yet, for the past year and a half, have worked diligently to get Vol. 1 to the most solid level I can based on the work described in the 5 points from the prior post.

One of the hallmarks of a solid/advancing jazz player is the ability to handle the blues and its Bebop variations in several keys. BGIS definitely scratches that itch!

I've had a few Skype and one private In person lesson with Richie and find him to be an excellent teacher and as importantly human being! At that point, I had recently retired from an intense tech career, was burned out and also dealing with family eldercare issues. Richie patiently straightened me out on some things regarding the courses and notating the rhythm templates. This was super helpful and gave me enough to pursue the personal goals as outlined in the 5 points. At some point, I will likely have a few more lessons with him, yet am confident in my own process for now.

Also, have and continue to be been a long-term classical guitar student With a local teacher and this requires a separate and substantial effort -- yet certainly supports the discipline required to do BGIS well.

[garybaldy]

Thanks for the clarification! Haven't posted on this forum in a while so still I'm still fine-tuning the decorum ?

In any case, was going to share points 1-5 above anyway. To further elaborate on some of the questions/issues raised by the OP ...

Prior to doing Vol. 1, I had pursued Jazz guitar off and on for close to 40 years. Private lessons with a local pro, studying from various books, learning tunes from the RB or by ear. plenty of years where I didn't play jazz guitar at all due to family commitments, work or personal crises.

Played with a couple of different big bands, local jazz workshop ensembles, and more recently, a quartet that downsized to a trio for most gigs. these experiences "playing out" led to a lot of grinding just to get the tunes together at a less than satisfying level. I figured out that a lot of this frustration had to do with not having established a systematic approach to applying Jazz Harmony and specifically Bebop to the guitar as well as having a framework for melodic targeting that makes it possible to improvise fluently.

This is where Richie's course really comes in to address deficiencies. I have all the books from both volumes and have looked ahead enough to see where things are going. Yet, for the past year and a half, have worked diligently to get Vol. 1 to the most solid level I can based on the work described in the 5 points from the prior post.

One of the hallmarks of a solid/advancing jazz player is the ability to handle the blues and it's Bebop variations in several keys. BGIS definitely scratches that itch!

I've had a few Skype and one private In person lesson with Richie and I find him to be an excellent teacher and as importantly human being! at that point, I had recently retired from a very intense tech career and was dealing with some family elder care issues. Richie patiently straightened me out on some things regarding the courses and notating the rhythm templates. This was super helpful and gave me enough to pursue my personal goals as outlined in the 5 points. At some point, I will likely have a few more lessons with him.

Also, have and continue to be been a long-term classical guitar student With a local teacher and this requires a separate and substantial effort.

It's only an assumption!!
ps. I've watched many of RZ's videos but never subscribed to his courses.

[pamosmusic]

When a response is one word and a bunch of question marks, with no context, I assume it to be unserious.

[SevenStringJazz]

In the past, I spent 100’s and 100’s of practice (and jam session) hours trying to approximate bonafide jazz guitar soloing by simply replaying ideas learned while noodling around on chord progressions or tunes. Sometimes this worked OK for simple modal vamps, yet was not that helpful in creating tasteful jazz lines and beautiful melodic phrases that actually make a musical statement.

A great benefit of Richie Zellon’s BGIS course is that it lays out a disciplined path for overcoming the results of too much prior noodling and guesswork WRT improvisation.

Staying on that path is proving to take a lot of time, determination and stamina!