Are You thinking while playing guitar?

[mrblues]

I mean thinking in terms of notes (or scales, arpeggios, whatever), for example if You play a 2-5-1 in C major, at the II. are You thinking about the notes inside of that II. chord and looking for those notes on the fretboard or are YOu just playing whereto Your ear brings YOu?

I ask that question because of 2 things.

#1: Scott Henderson said in one of his gutiar instructor video that when he is parctising, he is ransacking the gutiar fretboard for the relationships, but when he is playing, he is not thinking in way like that, he just lets his ear guide him. OF course I know that things come out unconsciously from brain what You practiced.

#2.: MY teacher told me I must think about the notes within the given chord and connect them in a musical way. I can only do that if I am thinking while playing, but then I am totally lost. I lot musicality, rhythm, of course this is a hard, and long way to play like that but I dont see the light in the end of the tunnel...

What are Your insights about this?

MrBlues

[destinytot]

I think that the purpose of thinking about musical nuts and bolts is to make practise become preparation for play.

Sometimes, however, I notice I'm 'thinking while playing' in a way that actually seems objective. I got lucky when one such moment - trepidly thumbing a Tele - was caught on mobile. Not saying it's great - but I am saying it's true:

[Doublea A]

I mean thinking in terms of notes (or scales, arpeggios, whatever), for example if You play a 2-5-1 in C major, at the II. are You thinking about the notes inside of that II. chord and looking for those notes on the fretboard or are YOu just playing whereto Your ear brings YOu?

I ask that question because of 2 things.

#1: Scott Henderson said in one of his gutiar instructor video that when he is parctising, he is ransacking the gutiar fretboard for the relationships, but when he is playing, he is not thinking in way like that, he just lets his ear guide him. OF course I know that things come out unconsciously from brain what You practiced.

#2.: MY teacher told me I must think about the notes within the given chord and connect them in a musical way. I can only do that if I am thinking while playing, but then I am totally lost. I lot musicality, rhythm, of course this is a hard, and long way to play like that but I dont see the light in the end of the tunnel...

What are Your insights about this?

MrBluesunconsciously

Yes. I am thinking when I am playing but it is big picture thinking. I am not thinking about every note.

For example, over a 2 - 5 - 1 in C, I may be thinking to end my phrase on an E. I am not thinking about all the notes that are going to get me there.

Another thought that goes through my head is "I am playing too many scaler lines, throw in some arpeggios" or vice versa. Or "start and stop your phrases somewhere other than than the downbeat".

Those are the sort of thoughts that go through my head when I am playing.


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[goldenwave77]

I ask that question because of 2 things.

#1: Scott Henderson said in one of his gutiar instructor video that when he is parctising, he is ransacking the gutiar fretboard for the relationships, but when he is playing, he is not thinking in way like that, he just lets his ear guide him. OF course I know that things come out unconsciously from brain what You practiced.

#2.: MY teacher told me I must think about the notes within the given chord and connect them in a musical way. I can only do that if I am thinking while playing, but then I am totally lost. I lot musicality, rhythm, of course this is a hard, and long way to play like that but I dont see the light in the end of the tunnel...

What are Your insights about this?

MrBluesunconsciously

You do #2 (while practicing), to get to #1.

If a gymnast wants to do a triple flip with a twist, they don't just go out and "wing it". They break it down and practice it, build it up bit by bit, and eventually combine it, in an overall "non-technical" way. (The paradox here is that technical mastery gives the illusion that the movement is not technical. Baryshnikov was explosive, and fluid in his movements, but believe me he didn't get to be that way without a lot of practice, and building strength, in his legs and core. The true artist "makes it look easy" but that is sleight of hand, in a way.)

[destinytot]

This talk is old, but it's relevant - and well worth watching in full. (Subtitles seem OK, too):

[destinytot]

I think that the purpose of thinking about musical nuts and bolts is to make practise become preparation for play.

Imo, 'play' (in the fullest sense) is key.
Imo, whether or not to play with others is a matter of conscience - not of chops/competence.
Imo, playing with others is a noble and sacred act - not a trivial one.
Imo, 'fun' should be taken 'seriously' - but not too ?seriously.

[goldenwave77]

This is a very good summary of the book Flow (1978 or thereabouts) by the same author. I have a copy and read it a while back, but honestly this brief lecture hits the high points pretty well.

Quite honestly, a lot of psychobabble gets me annoyed. But this is not psychobabble. The author was a serious academic and researcher at a serious school (Univ. of Chicago).

He also does not gloss over serious issues, as so much self-help nonsense does.

As applied to learning to be musical, I think the key points are intrinsic reward as the motivator (see list of points at 14:10), and reasonable levels of challenge (diagram, 15:38).

[NSJ]

I have never, ever heard any performer announce to the crowd, " right, now we're going to play at 251 in C major ".

At this point, if I find myself thinking, it means I don't know the song and its form well enough . The songs must live breathe and develop within us such that they become part of us. That is the goal .

It's as simple as difficult as that.

[mrblues]

This talk is old, but it's relevant - and well worth watching in full. (Subtitles seem OK, too):

I am very happy that You cited this guy here, because this guy is also hungarian just like me. And today we celebrate the hungarian revolution of 1848, which gave our nation a „push forward”, just like this guy gave such a feel to the whole world thorugh his job, „The Flow”.

One of my friends is a bookseller, I am going to ask him to get me that book, I must buy that, and learn from that!

Thanks bro!

[rpjazzguitar]

Depends on the situation.

I am certainly not thinking if I'm playing a 12 bar blues.

I am probably not thinking if I'm playing a standard I know well.

In fact, if I start thinking during a solo on a standard, the next few notes are likely to screw up the solo.

But, if I'm playing an unfamiliar tune with complex harmony, I'll be thinking as a way to avoid clams. The resulting solo isn't likely to be art.

[destinytot]

Depends on the situation.

I am certainly not thinking if I'm playing a 12 bar blues.

I am probably not thinking if I'm playing a standard I know well.

In fact, if I start thinking during a solo on a standard, the next few notes are likely to screw up the solo.

But, if I'm playing an unfamiliar tune with complex harmony, I'll be thinking as a way to avoid clams. The resulting solo isn't likely to be art.

I think that's very well put.

Sometimes gigs can get in the way of development. (And it doesn't help that nicotine and alcohol seem to be everywhere at night.)

[citizenk74]

Depends on the situation.

I am certainly not thinking if I'm playing a 12 bar blues.

I am probably not thinking if I'm playing a standard I know well.

In fact, if I start thinking during a solo on a standard, the next few notes are likely to screw up the solo.

But, if I'm playing an unfamiliar tune with complex harmony, I'll be thinking as a way to avoid clams. The resulting solo isn't likely to be art.

If, when playing, I find myself thinking, "Hey! That wasn't too bad!" what follows is clam chowder. Every time. I try to go for a Zen-like state of "no mind" - just heart, hands, and ears.

[henryrobinett]

I basically don't think while I play. But this depends on how to define thinking. I've talked about this a lot here. For me one of the primary, meaning FIRST and MAIN goals of practicing is to ingest or internalize the material to the extent where you don't have to think about it. As soon as you start thinking you begin slogging through the slow process of thinking rather than purely playing. Playing exists, when it works best, for me at least, is when it's intuitive. Even if I'm playing a memorized piece exactly, it's intuitive. You're connected to your emotions and pictures perceptions.

Now I don't define thinking as mental image pictures. I define thinking as figuring, reasons, working things out. I am AWARE of C7b9 and see the notes on the fretboard that correlate to that. But I'm not FIGURING what to play. I'm not going "Bb, Db, E . . . " I hear and see and play.

[henryrobinett]

Thinking is not merely cognitive awareness. Thinking is like driving some place. "Hm. Do I turn right in 14th or can I get there from Broadway?" Verses seeing mental image pictures of the route and making the proper turns. And then not even remembering how you got there.

That's like playing without thinking. You're looking at the route, the signs, the Donut Shop on the left and 14th street, but you're not thinking about it.


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[henryrobinett]

If, when playing, I find myself thinking, "Hey! That wasn't too bad!" what follows is clam chowder. Every time. I try to go for a Zen-like state of "no mind" - just heart, hands, and ears.

Yeah. The hardest thing is you have to suspend your criticism. You just have to let all the clams pass you by. And don't pat yourself on the back while you play.

But I NEED TO CLARIFY. NOT THINKING HAPPENS OVER TIME. In the beginning, YOU HAVE TO THINK. YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING BEFORE YOU STOP THINKING ABOUT IT.


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[sgosnell]

I'm thinking about the melody. I keep the melody in my head, along with what I'm playing. I just try to play what I hear in my head, while at the same time keeping the real melody in my head. It's not easy, and I'm not that good at it, but that's all I'm thinking about. Other than what might be happening around me, of course. Back in the day, I would be watching the dancers dry hump each other, and mull on how they thought they could get away with it in a small town, when their partner was not their spouse or betrothed, but the spouse or betrothed was present. I never figured that out. But that generally happened while playing rhythm on a 4 chord song. We played a few 3-chord songs, but not many.

[snailspace]

What I know about improvising wouldn't take too long to tell, so what I think about doesn't matter. However, I came across this article awhile back, and Perry's response seemed reasonable to me:

What to Think While Improvising | jazzadvice.com

[ragman1]

Do you think when you're tying your shoe laces or washing the dishes? Well, yes, of a sort only because it's a habitual action, which doesn't mean you're doing it inattentively. Same with playing. The mind is there, certainly, but it's not literally thinking each move because there's no time. Maybe occasionally one might see something and go for it but mostly no.

That's the benefit of practice. Personally I don't practice in the methodical sense, or only very, very occasionally, but I do pick up the instrument and see what I can see or play to a tune. For me, playing free of pressure and scrutiny is practice.

But that's after years of playing, of course. At the start one has to sit down, figure things out, and make it familiar. That also happens occasionally now, but not often.

But one is always in learning mode. That's probably the key to the whole thing.

[citizenk74]

I'm thinking about the melody. I keep the melody in my head, along with what I'm playing. I just try to play what I hear in my head, while at the same time keeping the real melody in my head. It's not easy, and I'm not that good at it, but that's all I'm thinking about. Other than what might be happening around me, of course. Back in the day, I would be watching the dancers dry hump each other, and mull on how they thought they could get away with it in a small town, when their partner was not their spouse or betrothed, but the spouse or betrothed was present. I never figured that out. But that generally happened while playing rhythm on a 4 chord song. We played a few 3-chord songs, but not many.

We must have played some of the same dives. Or maybe dives just all look alike.

[emanresu]

If not noodling around to just get more familiar with the tune, I try to think back and forward and try to put more meaning into the next things. Nothing technical or theoretical, just what my solo told musically before and try to respond to it and say something that makes sense the next. The tune must be absorbed well into ears or it wont work like that. No theory or technical thinking for me - I wouldn't play jazz if that was the only way.

[Doublea A]

I have never, ever heard any performer announce to the crowd, " right, now we're going to play at 251 in C major ".

At this point, if I find myself thinking, it means I don't know the song and its form well enough . The songs must live breathe and develop within us such that they become part of us. That is the goal .

It's as simple as difficult as that.

Nobody announces "now we are going to play a 2 5 1 in C major", the question was what are you THINKING not ANNOUNCING.

[Doublea A]

Do you think when you're tying your shoe laces or washing the dishes? Well, yes, of a sort only because it's a habitual action, which doesn't mean you're doing it inattentively. Same with playing. The mind is there, certainly, but it's not literally thinking each move because there's no time. Maybe occasionally one might see something and go for it but mostly no.

That's the benefit of practice. Personally I don't practice in the methodical sense, or only very, very occasionally, but I do pick up the instrument and see what I can see or play to a tune. For me, playing free of pressure and scrutiny is practice.

But that's after years of playing, of course. At the start one has to sit down, figure things out, and make it familiar. That also happens occasionally now, but not often.

But one is always in learning mode. That's probably the key to the whole thing.

I agree with your first comment "Do you think when you're tying your shoe laces or washing the dishes? Well, yes, of a sort only because it's a habitual action, which doesn't mean you're doing it inattentively. Same with playing. The mind is there, certainly, but it's not literally thinking each move because there's no time. Maybe occasionally one might see something and go for it but mostly no."

However, Personally I do practice in the methodical sense> I practice until it becomes instinctual.

[Doublea A]

What I know about improvising wouldn't take too long to tell, so what I think about doesn't matter. However, I came across this article awhile back, and Perry's response seemed reasonable to me:

What to Think While Improvising | jazzadvice.com

Good Article. Thanks for sharing.

[bako]

Personally, I equate the experience of no thought with death. Even of that I'm not 100% certain, never having experienced death before to the best of my knowledge.

Often when we discuss thinking, I get the impression that we are referring only to the running inner dialogue we keep, essentially talking to ourselves. As been pointed out, experiences that are well internalized can be executed without this
verbal management team directing our actions.

So what is left if there is no self conversing filling our mental-sphere. I think it might be referred to as focus (perhaps there is a better word). One could focus on pulse, time feel, I like to try to internalize the band as if all sounds were coming out of me, poetic imagery, on the tonal center, on the dominant area, on manifesting the spirit of Albert Ayler, what's for dinner, meager musician wages, etc.

So in my opinion, musicians can also play with just a self directed focus which is just a non-chatty form of thought.
Knowledge, experience and confidence are the building blocks that allow us to give permission to just shut up and
play guitar.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I basically don't think while I play. But this depends on how to define thinking.

So what is left if there is no self conversing filling our mental-sphere. I think it might be referred to as focus (perhaps there is a better word). One could focus on pulse, time feel, I like to try to internalize the band as if all sounds were coming out of me, poetic imagery, on the tonal center, on the dominant area, on manifesting the spirit of Albert Ayler, what's for dinner, meager musician wages, etc.

Both of these posts really resonate with me and with what I think about the topic. This is a good discussion, but I've seen some actual heated arguments about "thinking" versus "not thinking", and usually it's a disagreement on terms.

"Thinking" is usually talked about in ways which are mostly describing verbal/symbolic thinking. My views on a lot of this stuff was shaped by a brief time teaching a fine arts class, in which we looked at the book "drawing on the right side of the brain". The author talks a great deal about what others would call "flow" state. Basically, the idea is that the verbal/symbolic way of thinking is not only "not the way" when being creative, but thinking like that actually BLOCKS "flow".

She says that when she's doing workshops etc., she very often talks through the process while she does it. She mentions the fact that very often her lecture kind of "breaks down" and she is unable to continue speaking, as she gets more and more wrapped up in the flow state of what she's drawing.

Many of us equate "thoughts" with "words" or "symbols" basically. There are many other "thoughts" to be had of course. Really just semantics. Verbal/symbolic thinking, among other things, is much slower, linear and fixed. Most of us probably can't think that way in the middle of improvisation and not slow down.

"Flow" thinking has a very strong feeling of being disconnected with time. When you snap out of thinking that way, whether daydreaming or engaged in creative endeavor, you very often lose a sense of how much time has passed. Like the power nap, which basically feels like time travel, or the car accident which takes place in seconds but which is experienced as going by very very slowly. Both of these examples are seemingly impossible, if you view all "thought" as being linear, but all human thought isn't quite that simple.