Are You thinking while playing guitar?

[henryrobinett]

Good points bako and matt! I think we in the west are hampered by inadequate definitions of the MIND and thought in general. In Buddhism there are a couple of concepts for this - enlightenment and non-thinking through concentration. Samadhi. I'm not Buddhist. I don't know a lot about this so don't sue me if I got something wrong. Also the famous zen koan. I believe what happens is non-thinking through concentration.

FLOW is a good word. I think of great athletes. Basketball players, boxers. It's not that Curry or Jordan, Lebron or ANY of those great NBA players - it's not that they don't SEE the basket or are dead or anything. But they're NOT THINKING about playing. And when they do they miss. When they pull back, and you can see it, they miss. "I don't know. Should I take this shot?" But when they just flow to the basket and lay it up, or dunk or that 3 pointer just floats in, you know they're in the flow.

It's the opposite of dead. It's one of the highest forms of human consciousness. THINKING becomes a necessary soup of contradiction, confusion, doubt, argumentation, conflict, and indecisiveness. But after you have your tools, know your tools and have them mastered, then there's no more thinking process. You can look, change course. Unless someone puts a very confusiong chart in front of me, I'm not thinking. And I've been like this for a long time. I used to be terrible at rehearsals for my own band. Where normally I'm pretty articulate, in music I'm in that flow and can't talk very clearly at all. I really relate to the story about the art instructor who can gradually slip into inarticulateness.

I think observation is another good word. There are several types of observation - ability to merely observe. I see a woman crossing the street with a blue-green dress. Now I can just see her and the street and the lights. That's not wondering what type of color it is - Is it blue? Is it green? Would that dress look great on my wife? She's pretty sexy. I wonder if she'd go on a date with me? How old do you think she is? I bet she's European. THAT's thinking. That's that internal dialogue.

When I'm really playing I'm unaware of any dialogue at all. I see the fretboard in my mind or not. I'm aware of the chord structure and flow of the music, melody, playing. Sometimes I pull back by things like, "Am I playing too loud? Oops, I'm playing too much again. LISTEN! You're comping the same thing too much." But those are exceptions. Or if there's an original song someone brought or a tune I'm unfamiliar with that has some strange chords, especially polychords. E/C/D. Then I'm sucked right back into thinking.

Practice time. Later.

[destinytot]

Personally, I equate the experience of no thought with death.

La petite mort certainly seems compatible with Csikszentmihalyi's 'ecstatic' - i.e 'standing outside oneself'.

And there's also (figurative) resurrection of the observer.

[christianm77]

I would like to thank Henry for his great and thoughtful posts which have really elucidated things I was already experiencing, but was having trouble finding words to express.

Finding language to describe this stuff is quite a feat. Thanks!

[newsense]

Less trivial than the question of thinking whilst washing up or tying a shoe lace, is "do you think whilst driving ?".

As in playing music, driving is an activity of some complexity that takes some effort to learn to do skilfully. But how many times do you get to your destination and not remember anything of the journey, because you weren't aware of the subliminal thought processes that allowed you to safely (more often than not) negotiate the traffic to your destination. Like improvising over a familiar tune, a familiar journey is both the same and completely different every time - the general route is always the same (the changes), but the details of negotiating the traffic are always different (what you actually play). The more familar the route the less you actually think about the variable details.

One of the problems of not thinking whilst improvising is that occasionally I arrive at my destination with the vague feeling that what I just did was quite brilliant, but I really can't be sure, because not thinking about it means I can't remember what I played ! Unfortunately it doesn't happen to me very often, but when it does, it just feels great.

[henryrobinett]

Yeah. I don't remember shit. I used to record most of my gigs, which was a blessing and a curse.


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[ragman1]

I actually think we think more than we think we do...

[wolflen]

words can be very limiting in a discussion like this...the "flow" ..used to be the "zone" in many descriptions of "not thinking"

In the eastern approach to reveal how the mind works..the term meditation is used to "see" the mind..to "quiet the mind" .. and other acts of inner exploration..

to me thinking and being conscious are two very different functions of thought..I study a new chord formation and its voicings and how it may connect to another chord or be a junction for a melodic or harmonic run..I have to think this out a bit..perhaps name notes discover what fingering would be the most efficient to play it..I may experiment with this for hours or even days..how can I use it in a progression or song I already know..how does it sound in a higher octave or key..now after I have digested this and feel comfortable with it..and found several ways to use it that sound good and I am confident in using it..then I can be conscious of how I am using it..each note now becomes its own entity its own sound going in a direction with a specific purpose..I am not thinking how to finger it or attack it..that has all been worked out..now I am that chord creating a musical statement with it .. I am going to play the 5th of the chord very softly and slide into the X note of it..with a very slight bend..and realize it has an effect on the listener and the musiciians I may be working with..

Bill Evans is this kind of musician..and many others are also..we marvel at their mastery of the music they play and the instrument they use..they are not thinking of what to play or how to play it..it is in a much deeper part of their being where that direction is coming from..

we don't "think" how to walk..but we may be thinking of something very unrelated to walking..but..now lets be conscious of how we are walking..are we moving fast/slow..are we tense while we walk..is our head looking ahead of where we are going..are we breathing deep or shallow .. are we thirsty/hungry..

and in being conscious of these factors can alter how we may walk in a more comfortable efficient way..and in doing so we may also become conscious of other acts we perform in our daily lives..without thinking..in doing this kind of work..we may discover..much of our "thinking" is entertainment..which of course begs the question..who is it that is being entertained?

I always find the term "thinking my way out of something" a paradox of behavior.."did you think your way into something" may be a better approach..it may be as simple as "paying attention" to what you are doing..or about to do..now that may be the time to do some thinking!

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think while I practice. I turn off my thinker while I'm playing -- at that point, it's my ears and my fingers in charge, and we'll cross our fingers!

[pubylakeg]

I believe there's several levels of thought taking place simultaneously whilst playing, but as stated already, the woodshed is where the fundamentals of keys/chords/scale relationships etc should be drilled until they become instinctive.

However, I do think it's really important to have some perception of what you've played previously, which requires a degree of recall, and most importantly, I think it's vital to be thinking ahead in terms of where your line/solo is going. I'd liken this mindset to the process involved when reading music, where the player has to be reading the page in advance of what the hands are following.

[henryrobinett]

I think order can occur naturally when you don't try and force it. That's when it appears to be magic. I don't have to try and remember a phrase I just played to repeat or paraphrase it.


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[destinytot]

Challenged myself to work something out from a YouTube video yesterday (on video and in real time, for posting on a different thread).

I noticed my thinking. I really liked the piece - something of an ideal (stylistically) - but not so much its execution in the YouTube version. But instead of acting out 'the guitarist's lightbulb joke', I focused on fulfilling a request on that thread - and (almost) kept my negative thoughts to myself.

Those negative thoughts were creative - an exploration of 'what if?' The raw sounds and their juxtaposition being familiar, their synthesis comes more easily.

However, my point is an uncomfortable - if obvious - one. It's that awareness of the negative (which is not
to say 'attachment' to it, or to aught else) helps purge one's playing.

Moreover, well-developed awareness of what one doesn't like (and why) is inevitably exclusive and intolerant. I'm reminded of Joni's "The virtue of your style inscribed / On your contempt for mine" - and of this:

[destinytot]

I think order can occur naturally when you don't try and force it. That's when it appears to be magic. I don't have to try and remember a phrase I just played to repeat or paraphrase it.


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'Purposeful equanimity' is my motto.

[Rsilver]

You don't have time, when improvising, to think in detail about how to relate your lines to a tune's structure. You'd constantly be falling behind. You have to trust your ears.

That said, I do think of concepts some times, to guide myself. By concepts I mean things like "funkier," "Leave more space," "more modern," "bluesier" etc.

[henryrobinett]

Exactly


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[Thumpalumpacus]

The most thinking I ever do in improv -- and this is blues and rock, not jazz -- is getting an idea for wanting to hear this or that interval at this or that time, and going to the mode that will provide it. It's not conscious -- I'm not thinking, "Hey, that's a nat6 against a b3, I want to play Dorian" ... it's more a matter of, I hear the set of intervals in my mind's ear, and my fingers know well enough to get me in the ballpark.

From there it's poke and pray!

[BFrench]

I was just reading an article on Andreas Varady ...

What sorts of things do you practice when you do practice?
I practice new tunes, and the tunes that I play with my father. I don’t play scales or exercises because I actually don’t know many of them—I only know, like, two scales.
Two scales? It seems like you can play more scales than that.
I haven’t actually had a real teacher. I saw one for about five months, but mostly I play by ear.
You’ve studied some music theory, though, like when you attended Skidmore Jazz College. What did you learn there?
Skidmore was really great, but I mainly just learned about the history of jazz music and jazz musicians, and only a wee bit about notes and music theory. I’ve always mostly just played by ear.

Describe what’s going on inside you when you are playing over changes.
When I know the tune, and I know what the changes are, I just react to the chords. So when I improvise I’m just playing the notes that I think best suit the chords, and I try to play really good lines. Sometimes I’ll go outside of the chord, because some notes that are outside of it harmonically can still sound really good. It is kind of hard to explain.
So you just hear the chords and sense what are the right notes without really thinking about it?
Yes. I don’t ever think about which scales or things will go best with the chords in that way. When I improvise it comes from me, you know? It doesn’t come from scales. I just play what I think it will be good to play over those chords, and I get that just by listening, and also from experience.

[destinytot]

That said, I do think of concepts some times, to guide myself. By concepts I mean things like "funkier," "Leave more space," "more modern," "bluesier" etc.

Love this.

[destinytot]

I was just reading an article on Andreas Varady ...
...

"I only know, like, two scales."

Ha!

[snailspace]

I actually think we think more than we think we do...

I agree. There's is quite a bit of thought that takes place so rapidly we don't know we're doing it. We think of some of this as "reflex," but there is a lot going on that the brain doesn't have time to let you know about until afterward.

For example, if you suddenly notice an object moving swiftly toward your face, you flinch (or duck). If you had to process all of the signals and send messages in a contemplative matter, you'd be undergoing concussion protocol before you finished analyzing anything. The brain just does it all for you in a jiffy, and leaves it for you to sort out as the object clatters to the floor.

Similarly, a basketball player might practice all sorts of ball-handling drills -- crossover, behind the back, between the legs, speed dribble, change of pace, reverse dribble, and others -- before ever using them in a game. However, once a thing has been well-practiced, both in and out of context, it can (hopefully) just "come out" when needed in a live situation.

In a post-game interview, most players will be able to look at a replay and tell you why they did what they did, but they will also say -- that in the heat of the moment -- "I just reacted."

As someone who (long ago) worked pretty hard to transform myself from a poor athlete into a mediocre one, this is the way I see most things: how you practice is how you play. If I spend my time learning one lick at one tempo in one key, that's all I'll be able to do; but if I take the lick and learn it a bunch of different ways, then practice using it over changes -- to the point where I develop automaticity -- I stand a better chance of being able to do something more musical with it in real time.

[AurelioTarallo]

It seems like everyone has his/her own definition of thinking. And I don't mean it in a bad way. To me improvising is like storytelling. And there are quite a few ways to tell a story. When I play a solo I have a general idea and I try to stay in the moment and at the same time invision where do I wanna go. The level of awareness varies depending on the nature of the general idea. But at the end of the day the best I think is try to tie everything togheter singing. Both with the voice and the instrument. I also think a lot about space and rhythm while playing and I try to have no fear to leave empty space, and let my brain breathe


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[vsaumarez]

This begs the perennial question: what is improvisation? I think what Scott Henderson was saying is that he practices hard so when he plays, he doesn't need to think, it just comes automatically. In other words ideas are drilled into your muscular memory.

[mr. beaumont]

I think there's a lot of different levels to it. I also don't think "not thinking" is necessarily the highest level.

It's like, at a low level, you're thinking...what do I play? What'll work here. You shoot yourself in the foot a lot...but we all go back to this stage every now and then, learning a new tune (or having one thrown at us at a jam/gig) It's a good way to play when practicing, conciously work stuff out so later on it can come out "automatically."

Which would be a level up. Can be good and bad...can be pure inspiration, music flowing through you, hippy dippy stuff. Or it could be noodling, finger wiggling, playing patterns, licks that are "automatic." We all hang out at this level from time to time, mabe the low end, in the middle, we hope for the high end...those "magic" moments.

But I think even beyond this is that point of total clarity...where you can think, but it's not about fundamentals, certainly not about chords of form or "what can I play here?"...it's about higher level stuff...it's about listening and reacting, it can be very "fast" thinking. I can get here every great once in a while with tunes I'm very comfortable with...so I know there's gotta be better players than me who can get here more often, if not all the time.

Full circle, maaaaan. You think until you don't have to think and then you don't think until you can.

[fep]

I mean thinking in terms of notes (or scales, arpeggios, whatever), for example if You play a 2-5-1 in C major, at the II. are You thinking about the notes inside of that II. chord and looking for those notes on the fretboard or are YOu just playing whereto Your ear brings YOu?

I ask that question because of 2 things.

#1: Scott Henderson said in one of his gutiar instructor video that when he is parctising, he is ransacking the gutiar fretboard for the relationships, but when he is playing, he is not thinking in way like that, he just lets his ear guide him. OF course I know that things come out unconsciously from brain what You practiced.

#2.: MY teacher told me I must think about the notes within the given chord and connect them in a musical way. I can only do that if I am thinking while playing, but then I am totally lost. I lot musicality, rhythm, of course this is a hard, and long way to play like that but I dont see the light in the end of the tunnel...

What are Your insights about this?

MrBlues

I do #2... Say the chord is G7... I'm thinking "play my dominant 7 stuff". That could include G blues scale, G altered, G mixolydian, G7 arp, diminished, chromatic connections, dom 7 licks etc. But I don't think of any of those things, I'm just playing my dominant 7 stuff and I'm visualizing G7 type chord grips. And from familiarity of playing this way I can "hear" most of the lines as I'm playing them, I can sing the lines as I'm playing them.

I find this easiest for me, I think it's a beginners/intermediate way to play. Perhaps the most beginner way to play would be thinking key centers which is what I've moved past.

[lawson-stone]

I think all the time when I'm playing. I think things like, "This is so lame" and "Watch for flying cymbals" or "Maybe God will send a power failure..."