What are Blue Notes?

[goldenwave77]

That's possible. These things aren't easy to put into words clearly.



Well, quite :-)

(And I don't me to imply you don't know this.)

I did say one obviously needs the framework, more the better. Having got that, it's a matter of working within it but not being bound by it.

And that is the trick. And, in your next post...when you say you've never had a teacher, that's not quite true. We've all had a teacher--and that's the music itself. And I think we all agree on that.


PS: The parenthetical stuff in the box is my new comment (as well as the stuff outside of the box).

[lawson-stone]

I have to say I don't think like that. I'm wary of the whole idea of following and imitating. It's got nothing to do with arrogance and thinking oneself beyond learning, that's not it. You seem to be saying there are only two options -

a) copying others, or
b) doing anything we like.

I think that's for confused people. Only disorganised people want discipline, to follow and copy, so they feel safe. It reins in their tendency to go all over the place which, of course, feels insecure. Apparently there's either doing whatever you like and getting lost or follow a set line and be nice and safe!

this seems to me to over-dichotomize. Learning by imitation is the oldest form of education, and still one of the best. That doesn't stop one from doing what one likes. By imitating others, at least in a heuristic mode, we actually choices about what we might like that we didn't know existed before.

Imitation is one very good way to listen intensely. I am not a good artist. But when I'm on an archaeological excavation trying to make sense of a section I'm working in, I find if I try to draw it in as much detail as I can, I get tons of insight into the features of the section that help make decisions about how to continue. Likewise, learning by copying great players is a way of tracing over masterworks, drawing the section, becoming aware of details perhaps we screened out.

I know of nobody who lives in the either-or land. Also, your claim that people who learn by imitating masters are disorganized is as inaccurate as it is hyper-judgmental. It's a learning tool, and a good one. Even if you just transcribe a solo and totally forget it, you've done something worthwhile that affects your subconscious awareness. Memory is like that.

[ragman1]

when you say you've never had a teacher, that's not quite true

Of course it's not true. I've been playing for years, listened to everything, read all about it, absorbed all the ideas, and everything else. I meant I've never gone to a particular person and been taught one-to-one or in a group. And, as Goya famously said, I'm still learning.

[Thumpalumpacus]

In a minor blues, the b5 is the blue note.

In a major blues, is it the b5, the m3, both, neither?

There are three blue notes I use -- between b3 and nat3, between 4 and #4, and between 6 and b7. I'll use all of those in a major blues. They're really only accessible with a slide or bending, but when chording we can imply them by going back and forth between the bookend notes.

[ragman1]

this seems to me to over-dichotomize.

Someone's already said that. I'm quite clear in myself about it but, as I said before, expressing it verbally isn't always simple.

Learning by imitation is the oldest form of education

I know, it's how small children learn, especially language. But in adulthood, and probably adolescence too, the imitative mind isn't a creative mind.

That doesn't stop one from doing what one likes.

In this world very little does. That's one of our problems. Everybody does what they like and there's chaos!

By imitating others, at least in a heuristic mode, we actually choices about what we might like that we didn't know existed before.

Does finding new directions need imitation? It requires study, research, learning. Learning, when it becomes imitative, ceases to be learning.

Imitation is one very good way to listen intensely.

I don't understand that at all. Listening is highly creative, it's the very basis of all learning if one knows how to do it properly. Does that have any relation to imitation? If I'm listening in order to imitate isn't that a very limited, partial kind of listening? Is it actually listening at all? I doubt it.

learning by copying great players

What do you mean by copying? Is that learning? Will you ever be a great master by copying someone else? Will you ever be them?

I'm not saying don't look at what they do. If they're great players then, sure, see what they do. I've done all that myself, but in my experience all they do is stick to the known rules of music. I'm serious. You can dissect a line and find they're just doing the obvious most of the time. If they didn't, it wouldn't sound any good.

Where they differ from the average player is their fluidity and ability to stretch the envelope. It's the way they use the notes, the range, the syncopations, the feeling and expression, etc etc. That just comes out of them, probably from years of experience and, probably more so, from their own innate musical talent.

Will copying them, or anybody, give us that? You understand what I'm saying? Will copying a creative person make us creative too?

your claim that people who learn by imitating masters are disorganized

That's not quite what I said, is it? I said people who copy in order to be safe must suffer from a certain confusion and therefore internal disorganisation. Obviously, otherwise they wouldn't feel insecure and, from that, need to feel safe. We imitate to be safe, as we analyse to be safe. But I'd rather not be safe and from there find out.

Even if you just transcribe a solo and totally forget it, you've done something worthwhile that affects your subconscious awareness. Memory is like that

There I'd completely agree with you. But I don't call that imitation. You're not imitating then, you're experimenting, seeing what's going on, how someone else approaches something, and so on. You might get some good ideas out of it! I wouldn't just call that 'imitation' at all. That is learning because you're digging, finding out.

And, as you say, everything we do goes into the brain and comes out when we play. Absolutely. That's how it works.

[Bobby Marshall]

Our imagination is what allows us to take things we imitate and change them into our own sound/vision/story. Not everyone is able to imitate well, but they still use it. We all do. Imitation is how we acquire knowledge. Then you use that knowledge as a base for creativity. Hearing a song and afterward being able to recall (hear) it in your head is imitation, so is singing it or playing it on your instrument. It does seem that the terminology is the hang up.

And back on topic, if you play a phrase, it sounds good and makes you or others feel or remember feeling sad or blue, then you played some blue notes. All those flat notes and in between notes mentioned in this thread (and those who played them before) can be part of that but you need the other notes too to have a complete thought. Never thought a thread about blue notes would take a tangent like this one did!

[christianm77]

Yeah, well put, I suppose one thing I am on about is the use of imitation to hone audiation, which is essential IMO.

[Bobby Marshall]

Yeah, well put, I suppose one thing I am on about is the use of imitation to hone audiation, which is essential IMO.

I agree for myself but not everyone is trying for that. Not every forumite is looking to achieve the same levels of musicianship, and that is cool. If you play music at whatever level and enjoy it, congratulations!! You are a winner. Music should bring us together. Plenty of other things in the world to divide us.

[ragman1]

Our imagination is what allows us to take things we imitate and change them into our own sound/vision/story. Not everyone is able to imitate well, but they still use it. We all do. Imitation is how we acquire knowledge. Then you use that knowledge as a base for creativity. Hearing a song and afterward being able to recall (hear) it in your head is imitation, so is singing it or playing it on your instrument. It does seem that the terminology is the hang up.

Yes, okay. I mean, you could call the learning of any tune imitation if you wanted. Not quite what I meant, of course. Technically, the gathering of any knowledge is imitation but we better not get into that :-)

And back on topic

Probably a good idea.

[deselby]

How can you learn a language without in the first instance imitating? I watched a Pace interview with Peter Bernstein in which he talked about hearing Joe Pass when he was 11. He said he had no idea of what Pass was doing. And he talks about imitation. How he imitated and then studied to understand the form. He made the point that understanding the form is a requisite. But to what end? And in this I think him brilliant, because he says the purpose is to have a conversation. Can one have a musical conversation without saying anything original. Absolutely. But as Peter says, I think implicitly, cribbing does not make for art.

Participating in this forum states our commitment to an improvisational form. But whether we have the ability to say anything of substance, and in this I am expressing personal misgiving, is always a point of consideration. Technique is requisite but too often an end in itself. The great players always had/have chops galore but always in support of an underlying sensibility - their voice.

For myself, when improvising I have no great idea whether what I am saying is good, bad or indifferent. I exercise judgement but it's of little consequence. The real measure is in the conversation with both the other players and the audience.

This is a grand deviation from the OP's post. But when playing rhythm our role is support. And using 2 note voicings with extensions when appropriate is a valuable approach. And it doesn't only apply to Freddie Green type arrangements. The issue is rhythmic inflection and where voicings sit in relation to the other instruments. Played 'Black Nile' for the first time last weekend. A completely different feel than 4 to the floor. Extensions are necessary for the tune but I sensed it worked.

(edit) I just realized my last paragraph was directed to another thread. Can't walk and chew gum.