Modal Jazz Definition

**DS71** · 07-28-2016, 11:43 AM

Might be the wrong forum.....

How would you define Modal Jazz, and how was it different from the styles before it.
Thanks!

**Boston Joe** · 07-28-2016, 11:57 AM

Let me google that for you

**matt.guitarteacher** · 07-28-2016, 12:02 PM

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theor...sed-about.html
Autumn Leaves - modal analysis please
Modal Theory and Traditional Theory

If you do forum searches, select "advanced" and search for threads with "modal" in the title. Select for enouugh minimum responses to only pull up serious discussions. "Characteristic pitch" is also a good search term for modal jazz on the forum. Username=Reg + terms like "characteristic pitch" are also good for single post searches. Good luck.

I don't know that the people who love to discuss modal are around as much as they used to be. Read up a little bit, get some specific questions, and you'll do well with follow-up discussion. Good luck.

**DS71** · 07-28-2016, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

Let me google that for you

Actually, I already have.
Thanks!!

**matt.guitarteacher** · 07-28-2016, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

Let me google that for you

Really? these kind of questions are mostly why we come here, aren't they? Too much information is overwhelming, not to mention issues of questionable expertise etc. It's nice to have some filters, both human and otherwise . Hard to even know what to search for in the beginning.

Most guitarists, outside of a jazz, Use the term mode completely differently anyway. Modes are talked about as being synonyms for positions , fingerings, or " what to play over a given chord". The topic can't have too much disambiguation , in my opinion.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-28-2016, 12:19 PM

Well, you have "modal jazz," which is pretty easy to explain...it's jazz where the tune (or sections of it) are based on a mode, or scale, and not traditional functional harmony.

You also have the concept of taking a modal approach to functional harmony, which can be discussed for days...

**Boston Joe** · 07-28-2016, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Really? these kind of questions are mostly why we come here, aren't they?

To a point, I guess. I got a real "Help me with my term paper" vibe from the OP.

**DS71** · 07-28-2016, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

To a point, I guess. I got a real "Help me with my term paper" vibe from the OP.

you couldn't be further from the truth.......haha. wow. Have a good one, man.

**princeplanet** · 07-28-2016, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

....
I don't know that the people who love to discuss modal are around as much as they used to be....

I conducted a poll here a while back, "Modal", out of a choice of 6 styles that people on the Forum preferred, rated last.

"Swing" was most popular. Of course, record sales since '59 tell a different story...

**Boston Joe** · 07-28-2016, 12:50 PM

you couldn't be further from the truth.......haha. wow. Have a good one, man.

How would you define Modal Jazz, and how was it different from the styles before it.

That doesn't sound like a Music Appreciation class essay topic to you?

In any event, if I'm wrong, I apologize.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 07-28-2016, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

To a point, I guess. I got a real "Help me with my term paper" vibe from the OP.

I don't understand your beef on this. Besides which, we've answered students questions in the past as well. What are the guidelines/rules for people's private motivation for posting something?

I'd like to think that music appreciation students could ask those questions here, if they desired. I'd also like to think that we could just ignore those kind of questions if we don't like them. And how do you determine other's personal thoughts? To me, that just starts getting into the realm of codependency or something.

I generally don't like the "therapy" vibe for discussing jazz or music. Ignore what you don't like, maybe? Not trying to offend. Just seems to be an oft-chased rabbit lately.

**Boston Joe** · 07-28-2016, 02:31 PM

Whatever...

**matt.guitarteacher** · 07-28-2016, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

Whatever...

:-) nice!

**Hep To The Jive** · 07-28-2016, 02:51 PM

Those kind of questions are so general, makes you wonder why can't you research a little bit on your own before asking? There's just so much info around on internet, even on this forum, you could get an answer easily by reading past posts if you are patient. Then if there's certain details you are confused about, you can ask a specific question. That's how I look at it, anyway.

I'm only saying it to show that yes, some people might get a bit suspicious and question the intention, but it's justifiable reaction in my book.

Carry on.

**Boston Joe** · 07-28-2016, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

:-) nice!

Well, I was going to argue, but I decided to take your advice.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-28-2016, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

I conducted a poll here a while back, "Modal", out of a choice of 6 styles that people on the Forum preferred, rated last.

"Swing" was most popular. Of course, record sales since '59 tell a different story...

People were probably trying to figure out what, outside of a handful of records, was purely "modal."

**matt.guitarteacher** · 07-28-2016, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

Well, I was going to argue, but I decided to take your advice.

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Those kind of questions are so general, makes you wonder why can't you research a little bit on your own before asking? There's just so much info around on internet, even on this forum, you could get an answer easily by reading past posts if you are patient. Then if there's certain details you are confused about, you can ask a specific question. That's how I look at it, anyway.

I'm only saying it to show that yes, some people might get a bit suspicious and question the intention, but it's justifiable reaction in my book.

Carry on.

OK. The OP sounds a little like the research paper fishing thing. Maybe it is. I don't know. I'd say either ignore it or ask for a more specific question. Maybe just directly ask if it's a research question. :-) Most probably wouldn't care enough to bother, but then, why bother with the accusation as well?

In the last few months, off the top of my head, there have been a few of these:

Bizarre newbie question -- immediate accusation -- butt-hurt replies on both sides -- and finally, back pedaling.

I personally don't think that the immediate accusation is helpful to anything, and it's been proven wrong recently quite a few times. Among other things, it presumes to know others thoughts and motivations, which is weirdo IMO. If someone is new, I'd try to steer them more toward common practice/courtesy, like maybe being more specific etc. Don't you guys remember being new?

**Binyomin** · 07-28-2016, 09:56 PM

Just to address the original question, a modal tune will often stay on the same chord for a long time and the soloist is often supposed to use one mode, such as dorian, for a tune or long section of a tune. Listen to "So What" by Miles Davis. Jazz standards before that had rapidly changing chords and often a tune would modulate to several different keys in the course of 32 bars. A soloist couldn't stick to one mode for a long time and explore it's possibilities.

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**princeplanet** · 07-29-2016, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

People were probably trying to figure out what, outside of a handful of records, was purely "modal."

Then maybe this list would have helped.... (click to listen?)

Afro Centric (Joe Henderson recording by Steve Erquiaga)
Afro Centric ( Joe Henderson - Power to the People)
Bolivia Cedar Walton
Black Narcissus ( Joe Henderson - Power to the People)
Dolphin Dance Herbie Hancock
Dolphin Dance Herbie Hancock,Ron Carter,Tony Williams
Eiderdown Bill Evans
Icarus Ralph Towner (Oregon)
United Wayne Shorter (Art Blakey)
African Skies Michael Brecker
Dawn John Mclaughlin
Choices Michael Brecker
Chromazone Mike Stern (Michael brecker)
Nothing Personal Don Grolnick (Michael brecker)
Actual Proof Herbie Hancock
Pools Don Grolnick (Steps Ahead)
A Shade of Jade Joe Henderson
Mode for Joe Joe Henderson
Firm Roots Cedar Walton
Suspone Mike Stern
Partly Cloudy Yehudit
Peresina McCoy Tyner
Yes or No Wayne Shorter
Firm Roots (Cedar Walton - recorded by Eric Alexander)
Song for Bilbao Pat Metheney/Michael Brecker
Sail Away Tom Harell
Sail Away Tim Coffman
The Beatles John Scofield
Tones for Jones Bones Chick Corea
Freedom Jazz Dance groove
Freedom Jazz Dance my demo groove
Friday Night at the Cadillac Club Bob Berg
Friday Night at the Cadillac Club slowed down head
Eighty One Ron Carter/Miles Davis
Gingerbread Boy Miles Davis
Mood Miles Davis
Mood Bill Frisell
Naima Larry Coryell
Naima John Coltrane
Looks Like Meringue John Scofield
One Finger Snap Herbie Hancock
Serenity Joe Henderson
Speak no Evil Wayne Shorter
Syzygy Michael Brecker
Tomato Kiss Larry Schneider
Minor Blues Kurt Rosenwinkle
Sky Dive Freddy Hubbard
In a Silent Way Miles Davis ("In a Silent Way" album)
Humpty Dumpty Akio Sajajima/Joe Henderson (our version)
Humpty Dumpty Chick Corea Electric Band
Forest Flower Charles Lloyd
Forest Flower SunsetCharles Lloyd
Unity Village Pat Metheny
Fee Fi Fo Fum Wayne Shorter
Fall Wayne Shorter ("Nefertiti" Miles Davis)
New York Minute Herbie Hancock ("The New Standards")
Eighty One Ron Carter

**princeplanet** · 07-29-2016, 09:49 AM

PT II....

WildflowerWayne Shorter
Witch Hunt Wayne Shorter
Ana Maria Wayne Shorter
I'll Catch You John Scofield
Grey and Visceral John Scofield
Recorde Me (No me Escueca) Joe Henderson
Joshua Miles Davis (played by Joe henderson/John Scofield)
Inner Urge (Joe Henderson)
Windows (Chick Corea - from Gary Burton "Like Minds")

**Boston Joe** · 07-29-2016, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Most probably wouldn't care enough to bother, but then, why bother with the accusation as well?

I'll just point out that there's a ton more info at the Google link I posted in post #2 than there is in this thread to this point.

**Drumbler** · 07-29-2016, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by DS71

Might be the wrong forum.....

How would you define Modal Jazz, and how was it different from the styles before it.
Thanks!

It stays in one mode for many bars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_What_(Miles_Davis_composition)

"So What" is one of the best known examples of modal jazz, set in the Dorian mode and consisting of 16 bars of D Dorian, followed by eight bars of E♭ Dorian and another eight of D Dorian."

**princeplanet** · 07-29-2016, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Drumbler

I

Yup, Modal Jazz is so easy to "get", even rock'n'rollers can "get" it!

BTW, that clip - not only is it the coolest Jazz clip you will find on Youtube, it's the coolest youtube clip, period.

**DS71** · 07-29-2016, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Binyomin

Just to address the original question, a modal tune will often stay on the same chord for a long time and the soloist is often supposed to use one mode, such as dorian, for a tune or long section of a tune. Listen to "So What" by Miles Davis. Jazz standards before that had rapidly changing chords and often a tune would modulate to several different keys in the course of 32 bars. A soloist couldn't stick to one mode for a long time and explore it's possibilities.

This is the kinda thing I wanted to hear........