Pat Martino laser lines

[vintagelove]

It's weird man, part of me wants to strongly disagree and strongly agree with what you wrote, so I do.

Dude, I totally agree!

Man, I totally disagree.

You hit it right on the head.

Here's how I've come to terms with it: everyone is born with some sort of 'feel', it's just that some fall perfectly into certain genres (and/or they find their natural path around the instrument) and they end up playing like Martino, Brecker, et al. Then there are other players whose natural feel fights the sounds of the masters we all love. So, there's this natural flow in the background just waiting to be discovered and refined, but we're still trying to play some other way. The trick is finding how the fingers want to naturally flow and then make music with it, whether that be your own 'thing' or in the context of someone else's.

So, yeah, I totally agree, some people are born with the feel that leaves them sounding like SRV, et al, and then there's all the other feels waitin' to be found.

I'm glad you saw the post for what it was and not some kind of insult.

Like I said it's not always a good thing.... I would much rather play a tune at 220, then play a ballad. That doesn't mean I CANNOT play one, just that I am much closer to my element playing tunes that are burnin. The LAST thing you want to hear is me playing Girl from Ippanema.... As soon as I start soloing it turns into some kind of bebop/blues thing, totally inappropriate. Worse yet, if I do try to cop that (it's probably best to leave out how I would label it) feel, it's totally fake. You might buy it, but I as the player, I feel like I'm doing an impression of someone else.

One of my good friends (went to music school together, great musician and player) has always been the complete opposite type of player than myself. Where I might put ten notes, he might play three. The thing is, he has always been able to make me smile with his playing, because he comes up with stuff that I don't hear in my head. We are DIFFERENT!!!

And that is a great thing, especially when we play together. There is a big contrast between us in both our comping and solos. That makes it refreshing. The bonus is we both end up at some point trying to cop a bit of the others style, which makes us both better players in the end.


A good non guitar example is one of my favorite sax players, Eddie Lockjaw Davis. No matter what tune he is playing, it's the blues. The dude was born with it.

[Boston Joe]

3. Work on your time every day for the next year, recording practice sessions along the way, and see where you are in a year. It's the constant in almost everyone's responses. You may not be playing on Martino's level, but you will see considerable progress toward your goal. On day 365, listen to recording from day 1.. I bet you'll feel pretty good about it.

When I'm working consistently with a metronome (which I should do more), I notice results after only a few weeks. I've never done it consistently for a year. I bet the results would transformative.

[ghoststrat]

I'm glad you saw the post for what it was and not some kind of insult.

Like I said it's not always a good thing.... I would much rather play a tune at 220, then play a ballad. That doesn't mean I CANNOT play one, just that I am much closer to my element playing tunes that are burnin. The LAST thing you want to hear is me playing Girl from Ippanema.... As soon as I start soloing it turns into some kind of bebop/blues thing, totally inappropriate. Worse yet, if I do try to cop that (it's probably best to leave out how I would label it) feel, it's totally fake. You might buy it, but I as the player, I feel like I'm doing an impression of someone else.

One of my good friends (went to music school together, great musician and player) has always been the complete opposite type of player than myself. Where I might put ten notes, he might play three. The thing is, he has always been able to make me smile with his playing, because he comes up with stuff that I don't hear in my head. We are DIFFERENT!!!

And that is a great thing, especially when we play together. There is a big contrast between us in both our comping and solos. That makes it refreshing. The bonus is we both end up at some point trying to cop a bit of the others style, which makes us both better players in the end.


A good non guitar example is one of my favorite sax players, Eddie Lockjaw Davis. No matter what tune he is playing, it's the blues. The dude was born with it.

Nope, didn't take it as an insult, I default to thinking things are said with good intentions.

You have great points!

[ghoststrat]

When I'm working consistently with a metronome (which I should do more), I notice results after only a few weeks. I've never done it consistently for a year. I bet the results would transformative.

It did wonders for me. I need to do it again, I lose *all* of my playing within a short period of time. I actually have to listen to recordings of my playing to remember how I play if I'm away from it for more than a week, or two.

The reason I did it was that I was complaining to a friend who's a very solid player. He told me to do it for one year, and if my playing wasn't transformed, I could move in with him and he'd kick my ass into shape (we were pretty young at the time, so it wasn't as crazy as it sounds). Well, I did it for a year and it was great for me.

[yotsn]

Thanks Ghost for the thoughtful responses.

[christianm77]

Can you play dead-on with it, yet? When you start playing behind, or ahead of the beat, and your internal clock isn't near perfect, it's like listening to a potato sack race on oiled ice.

Here's a pretty good discussion about it:

Playing behind/ahead of the beat? - DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM

and this seems to be a good explanation of how to practice it:

"From what's been posted already, you probably have a good idea of what behind/ahead of the beat is, but that begs the question: how do you develop and practice it?

Start very, very simply. Play quarter notes at 60 bpm (use a metronome) with your right hand. Practice landing them square on the click, so that you can't even hear the click anymore. This part is somewhat zen-like, because when you're doing it right, there's no affirmation, because you can't hear the click. If you are behind or ahead, then you will hear the click a bit.

Then try playing ahead of the click. Create a "flam" between the click and your playing (your playing occurs first). Strive for a consistent spacing between the click and your playing.

Then try playing behind the click (the click occurs first). Again, strive for consistent spacing.

As you get comfortable with each of these scenarios, try switching between them after a specific amount of measures. You will find that it's easier to "bury" the click (play dead on) after you've learned to control your time such that you can speed up or slow down by very small amounts.

Repeat the above, but with basic rock beats, blues shuffles, jazz waltz, etc. It's especially difficult to play fills while maintaining the same time-center!"

Genuine question - is this how Pat developed his time? Presumably he would have had to relearn post aneurism...

[christianm77]

I know what you mean. I ask because I actually agree with him, to an extent. I think shedding with both is a good idea.

I don't recall Hal ever mentioning setting the click to 1&3. You tap your foot on 1&3. Is there somewhere where he discusses metronome use?

Personally I set my click to 2&4 or 4 and tap (or don't tap) my foot on 1&3 or just 1. Lower body/upper body.

[grahambop]

Thoughts 2:

This is starting to get complicated.

What is the beat in a live playing scenario with no click?

One person could be playing way behind their idea of where the beat is, but it could be still ahead of someone else's idea of where the beat is, no?

Now what?

I saw or read an interesting discussion about this, unfortunately I can't remember where or who, but it was a well-known jazz musician. Basically he said that each player has their own conception of exactly where the beat is (or rather where they play in relation to it), and part of what creates the overall time feel of a well-knit group is this slight disparity. I think he said it creates a 'wide' beat when the difference is larger, and this is ok, in fact it might even be desirable in some ways.

Bear in mind, he is talking about great players who are absolutely consistent as to where they place the beat, they don't 'wander about' with it. And the differences in question are presumably minute. But it's an interesting point.

[ghoststrat]

I don't recall Hal ever mentioning setting the click to 1&3. You tap your foot on 1&3. Is there somewhere where he discusses metronome use?

Personally I set my click to 2&4 or 4 and tap (or don't tap) my foot on 1&3 or just 1. Lower body/upper body.

I'm pretty sure he does, I'll see if I can find the clip. I think I also saw it in an article.

[ghoststrat]

Genuine question - is this how Pat developed his time? Presumably he would have had to relearn post aneurism...

That is a good question. My guess is that he developed it through playing with records (a substitute for metronome/drum machine), but then it really solidified during the thousands of hours gigging and playing with other musicians of solid time. I think that's the natural trajectory: independent development -> play with others -> graduate to playing with others who have great time -> become of of those with great time that others seek out. I'm not saying anything most people don't already know, this is more for OP's benefit.

[christianm77]

That is a good question. My guess is that he developed it through playing with records (a substitute for metronome/drum machine), but then it really solidified during the thousands of hours gigging and playing with other musicians of solid time. I think that's the natural trajectory: independent development -> play with others -> graduate to playing with others who have great time -> become of of those with great time that others seek out. I'm not saying anything most people don't already know, this is more for OP's benefit.

I'd be interested in hearing from someone who maybe has had a lesson with Pat. I understand he teaches...

[christianm77]

In terms of time feel, it's good to get sensitised to where the beat is. Then when you are playing with others who can feel where they are at.

I think working with a metronome has helped here, it's good to develop your ability to synchronise exactly with a click. But it is also good to play with the metronome playing in a different place to you so that you can make it swing.

A good player will also project a feeling of time for in their playing - their own pocket, rather than leaning on others all the time.

In the second case I think that's developed by working on your rhythmic imagination - hearing phrases rhythmically. I feel this ability is separately developed to playing with a click, but I'm not 100%

[edh]

@c77, I believe Zucker had a few lessons with Pat.

[robertoart]

Genuine question - is this how Pat developed his time? Presumably he would have had to relearn post aneurism...

There is a documentary about creative people who have experienced Brain Injury, and Pat is one of the participants. The documentary examines your question in detail and says (if i remember correctly), that the part of the brain responsible for Pat's music knowledge was largely intact. If anyone has seen the documentary they may be able to elaborate on this more. It is a fascinating documentary, and Mr Martino is very courageous and open.

[princeplanet]

There is a documentary about creative people who have experienced Brain Injury, and Pat is one of the participants. The documentary examines your question in detail and says (if i remember correctly), that the part of the brain responsible for Pat's music knowledge was largely intact. If anyone has seen the documentary they may be able to elaborate on this more. It is a fascinating documentary, and Mr Martino is very courageous and open.

Really? I always thought he spent years re learning what he knew by listening to his old recordings...

Speaking of his old recordings, El Hombre is simply stunning for a 22 year old. How come he sounds so much like Benson? Who was listening to who? ....

[robertoart]

Really? I always thought he spent years re learning what he knew by listening to his old recordings...

Speaking of his old recordings, El Hombre is simply stunning for a 22 year old. How come he sounds so much like Benson? Who was listening to who? ....

Check out the documentary if you can.