-
Sorry I meant the melodic line over that chord not the progression itself (which is pretty straightforward as you say.)
Originally Posted by Reg
That reminds me I'll have to dig Extensions out again now that I play CD's in the car... Not 100% sure about the M-base stuff (Five Elements etc) but I have checked a bit of it out. It's pretty amazing. TBH I am more a fan of Robert Mitchell who along with Anthony Tidd and others did a lot to spread the M-Base vibe in the UK back in the 90s...(Not that M Base is necessarily a worked out 'school'... Tidd is now based in NY IRRC)
I hear you about Coleman's tendency to go super overboard in the philosophy, and I'm not convinced by everything, but in the case of the Bird article I really felt he was absolutely on form with all the rhythm stuff, and I really liked his term 'invisible paths' - much like subs, but kind of more like sub systems through the changes.
Of course, he didn't invent this (and I worked out this type of stuff by transcribing not only bird but many other players) but it's great to see someone else has come to the same conclusion, and has invented a snappy term for it.
The M-Base ways rhythm stuff is a roast. Highly recommended for anyone who hasn't checked it out and wants something hard but useful to practice.....Last edited by christianm77; 01-19-2016 at 03:10 PM.
-
01-19-2016 03:05 PM
-
Hah yes, me too. It's a great motif and I like the way it breaks up the up/down flow of so many of my lines. Originally Posted by Groyniad
But for you seventh guys, It can also be considered a pivot of a major seventh arpeggio on the b7 of the chord. There are other ones in the dominant/mixolydian scale but this one is by far the coolest.... Stacked tertial structures are part of the Barry Harris system, as are triads and 6th-dim patterns....
The b7 sub is omnipresent in Lester Young and Charlie Christian, too.
Not sure if this is what you mean, but for me -and incidentally - i agree with C77 too that there isn't really any such thing as jazz harmony. jazz is all in the time.
and - this point got ignored so i'll say it again -
the point is to get the groovy sounds out of Dm7 - G7 - A7alt etc. - not to replace them with something else!!!
Dm7 or G7 = F or Am
G7(b9) = Fm or Abm
Cmaj7 = Em or C. Am should work, but I like it less. The 6 or pentatonic chord (Am7 or C6/9) is good.
A step further out
G7 --> E or B
C also goes to E
Interleaving C and Abm triads together is very cool -it's kind of a I-Valt-I-Valt-I deal. Lage Lund mentioned that in a workshop, but I think he practices all the combinations and plays the ones he likes by ear - he said he's not really a scale guy...
Lage is the triad king IMO BTW.
A7 alt = I like Bb going to Bbdim or Bbm here. It's more a Em7b5 A7alt thing actually.
So I use a Bb/E sound on Em7b5 when soloing. Put it into a chord, and you have a McCoy Tyner voicing, but to me that's an old thing melodically, probably goes back to at least the swing era. Again the melody/harmony split in older jazz?
B (poss. augmented) sideslip into C on G7 C is also quite old school to my ears when used melodically, but the B/G voicing is again quite a modern, McCoy Tyner-ish sound.
Pretty standard stuff, but the triads cut to the chase. You can think of them as Upper Structures, Invisible Paths, or purely play them by ear. It really doesn't matter.
And there's nothing wrong with 1 3 5 ... Basing lines on Dm - Dm6 with chromatics is another classic one... Very swing with a clear rhythm, very bop if it's more broken up....
TBH I think you can run any sort of motion you want. These are simple options. The beauty of triads are is that you can hear them clearly. It's something I am just scratching the surface with really.
Provided you aren't landed with some cloth eared pianist. But if your ears are good you should be able to work around that right?Last edited by christianm77; 01-19-2016 at 03:46 PM.
-
here are some examples
forgive the awful singing
Last edited by Groyniad; 01-20-2016 at 01:22 PM.
-
I don't disagree with the importance of 7th chord theory. But you and I do seem to disagree here. What I'm talking about can be, and has been, used in modal jazz. But also works brilliantly for improvising and composing over changes. Originally Posted by Reg
If it feels like there's not enough time to utilize these ideas in progressions, it's only because the use of them seems foreign to you. Just like someone who doesn't know their scales or arpeggios will tell you there's not enough time during a bop tune, or during giant steps, to be switching between all those keys in order to move with the tonal reference of the tune.
I just shared my analysis of Stablemates recently which I think you saw. Even in fast moving tunes and bop, this stuff is absolutely applicable... and for me, very helpful for creating melodies through changes that don't feel stale.
I actually find this stuff to be far easier to apply to progression than to modal situations precisely because I'm not as fluent in this thinking yet and it's hard for me to mix and match them at will in the way necessary to create great sounds in a modal situation. But over tunes, when the chords are moving... I've found it to be very useful in creating moving melodies that don't ever sound like running scales or arpeggios, and that outline the harmonic movement, but in ways that sound more colorful and organic to my ear than just outlining 1-3-5-7 shapes... which I've done plenty of.
-
How about... defining what the source for all your approaches to relate to or use as the reference for creating that movement.
By the way... your truly a interesting character Christian, and I mean that in a very positive way, the complete package.
OK back to jazz harmony... we're past the OP using triads as the basic of jazz harmony... I believe OP was referring to performance of on the guitar neck... with unexpected benefits etc... all cool and I believe most do believe and understand the relationships of thirds and the physical benefits.... the same can be said and has been said of using 4ths... ever play cello... 5ths...
So have you ever thought about jazz changes and what are the common practice changes used, not just what's notated, changes actually used during the performance and why 7th chords are used. I know you have this Berklee thing... but Most of the musicians I gig with before I went to berklee were already using 7th chords... and generally because when musicians begin to use extensions with out have organization beyond.... I like or dislike, well it generally gets messy. And when you play most of the jazz tunes, you begin to notice common practice of what extensions imply... beyond embellishments, or added notes. Not just what's played... but where the harmony might go. ( based on common practice... both from charts and from what the musicians are actually playing). Unlike triadic harmony which is from the school of Borrowing and keeping the tonal organization the same... jazz harmony has borrowing and also modal interchange, hardly anything not used by 20th century composers in their notated tradition...
Just as their are common practice patterns of use with borrowing... there are also with modal interchange. And there are common practice tonal organization references also.
Extremely long story short... triads don't cover the basic harmonic resources and structures which jazz used as common practice.... this is a practical performance example. When your playing jazz tunes... I'm not talking about pop tunes or fixed chord patterns with same harmonic organizations and implications.
Again this with harmony as topic.
-
Thank you.. I like old style.. when I began actually I had an idea to imitate early swing era players but I quickly moved into modern... it's fun and pleasure to play sometimes but I just do not feel like speak my languageNot this week I'm afraid as I'm on jury service.
But I do have a couple of youtube videos on it that I posted ages ago if it answers any questions.... It's very basic stuff, but it does reflect the way that guitarists tended to harmonise their solo lines during the swing era....
As per these lessons... it sounds like common classical triads.. that you think of them as of '3-voiced' does not change anything - it's common classical 4-voiced harmony - just adopted in some way to certain instrument... it's kind of banjo style arrangement...
and harmonically it sounds like light classical music of those days.. for example Kreisler... (That's concerning 7th chords I mean...)
But when we speak about harmony we usually mean what's behind musical texture ... harmony is kind of soul so we cannot just judge of it looking at the body..
We you play that G chord up and down the neck you do not play any inversion from pont of view of harmony
it will be inversion only when bass gets functional voicing... in context this study even when you go from G to B min - it dies not sound like voicing in functional sence...
It sounds just like melody with most convinient chord tones above...
The simplest way to check is to re-arange it for a group.. where the harmonic possibilities are not that limited..
-
With due respect, to both you and Van Eps ... Originally Posted by christianm77
My definition of Jazz is that it is what when you hear it, you say: Ha, Jazz! This did not ring that bell.
I don't say it did not sound nice, but more like some medieval/ renaissance, lute piece combined with some French, almost, but not really, manouche thing.
Maybe if it was within arrangement, with Bass and maybe some more instruments ...
-
Absolutely, you got it man. Banjo was the basis of the '30s chord soloing style. Charlie Christian was the first (American) guitarist to separate himself from that tradition.... All the other swing guys (I think without exception) started on banjo and swapped to guitar when Eddie Lang shook everything up in the late 20s.Thank you.. I like old style.. when I began actually I had an idea to imitate early swing era players but I quickly moved into modern... it's fun and pleasure to play sometimes but I just do not feel like speak my language
As per these lessons... it sounds like common classical triads.. that you think of them as of '3-voiced' does not change anything - it's common classical 4-voiced harmony - just adopted in some way to certain instrument... it's kind of banjo style arrangement...
and harmonically it sounds like light classical music of those days.. for example Kreisler... (That's concerning 7th chords I mean...)
Plectrum guitar basically. A development of plectrum banjo. (Also tenor guitar/tenor banjo, too, right?)
But I am using three notes as a basis, as four notes make for more difficult voice leading due to doubling + that's what I hear on records and how the Van Eps Guitar book works (see Rob MacKillop for the actual examples as opposed to my riffing on them.) Uber classical sound anyway, as you say. This particular book was published in 1938.
The later Van Eps book I haven't looked at. I believe it's different - his style changed over the war years, and he moved to fingerstyle and starts to introduce what we would think of as more 'jazz harmony.' The Melbay George Van Eps Guitar Solos book includes pieces from both the early and later periods so you can compare.
When I get a bit more time, I'm going to get back into some old school plectrum guitar. I feel I have neglected this for a bit, and I want to learn some Eddie Lang.... It's a beautiful style.
Sure, it's a short hand really. It's an inversion from my point of view (the guitar fretboard), but the bass calls it. You'll find people using the term 'inversion' in this way when referring to the guitar. The bass calls it, of course, in a group. Same with things like tritone subs. But we like to flatter ourselves that we are in control :-) Which we can be when we play without bass...But when we speak about harmony we usually mean what's behind musical texture ... harmony is kind of soul so we cannot just judge of it looking at the body..
We you play that G chord up and down the neck you do not play any inversion from point of view of harmony
it will be inversion only when bass gets functional voicing... in context this study even when you go from G to B min - it dies not sound like voicing in functional sence...
It sounds just like melody with most convinient chord tones above...
The simplest way to check is to re-arange it for a group.. where the harmonic possibilities are not that limited..
BTW Doubling the bass sounds great in a swing rhythm section. For example, if the you are playing a G/B Bbo7 Am7 D7 and the bass plays B Bb A D. That sort of thing runs contrary to the ethos of a bop and post-bop rhythm section. (But not necessarily to the fusion or contemporary i.e. post rock ethos)Last edited by christianm77; 01-19-2016 at 05:08 PM.
-
That's the basis of the style of '30s chord soloing. I'll post some examples. Originally Posted by Vladan
Manouche is a subset of swing. I hate that people know so little about '30s American guitar, but that's another rant for another day.Last edited by christianm77; 01-19-2016 at 04:58 PM.
-
Hey Jordon... Maybe we disagree or not... but I believe I said or... what I'm trying to say... which you also just said, I'll copy and paste...
"I don't disagree with the importance of 7th chord theory. But you and I do seem to disagree here. What I'm talking about can be, and has been, used in modal jazz. But also works brilliantly for improvising and composing over changes."
I think there is a difference between soloing or composing over existing changes.... and defining how the existing harmony works. Just like using 2nds 4ths or what ever organization one chooses to use for their organization for improv over existing changes that already have harmonic reference.
I'm not saying I don't dig the application or organization of the performance... I do dig it. There millions of jazz musicians and many of them have different tastes or opinions of what's hip, fresh etc... that all comes and goes. Your usage of triads doesn't go by to quick... That is typical tempos of playing jazz right... that's what we do.
I was just referring to you example from above post. I dug your example over stablemates... I'll check out again.
Do you have organization for the use of the added note... harmonically or intervallic. Like when your playing a tune you don't know from memory... do you need a quick analysis. I posed somewhere how I'm enjoying the approach, looking forward to more. I agree the outlining of chord tones gets sleeping... but many can't... or haven't gone through the process of just that... being able to spell changes, or play the scales. Usually from technical problems... and also from not knowing what the chord tones and extensions or scales are.
-
(Mastren's solo at 2:36)
I'll post some '30s George VE when I remember what records he played on ;-) He didn't release anything under his name until later IRC.
You can chromatic moving lines etc as well & added note chords are rare as you can probably hear. It's pretty straight harmony.
I love these guys, and it's definitely jazz, just older jazz. Bear in mind this is how pretty much everyone in the US played at this time - basically like a banjo - with the exception of maybe Teddy Bunn and Eddie Lang. There weren't many single note soloists, probably in part due to projection issues...
(Django of course was mostly working in strings bands, as were most of his colleagues in Paris...)
When I do chordal soloing in swing music, I usually end up a bit more modern. A lot of Barry stuff, too. I can't help it, but it seems to work ok. I'd like to nail the pure style though.Last edited by christianm77; 01-19-2016 at 05:16 PM.
-
Ok, so, it is pre 30's Jazz. Will try to get some info. Honestly, I think of Louis Rmstrong type sound and that New Orleans thing as of The Begining. Previous "styles" are not quite there, IMO. Banjo in New Orleans style just about rings the bell, but tere you have all the horns to smash it. Originally Posted by christianm77
Anyway, I thought you were about aplication in contemporary styles.
Now listening to these YT examples you posted, they definitely are Jazz, but that's not what your own clips sounded like. As I said, it's likely that only in combination with other instrumets it has true value. Also, playing real tune, in "propper" rhythm, as oposed to some isolated guitaristic "devices", does not hhurt.
I really "hate" when people edit their message after I've already responded, but guess it's my fault, being fast on response. Originally Posted by christianm77
BTW, why would anybody, except for American ethnomusicologists, know anything about American pre 30's guitar music? I really could not care less. I may actually like the sound, but am not at all interested if it's pre, or post '30s, or '220s. Not that it is not nice to know. So thank you for the info.Last edited by Vladan; 01-19-2016 at 05:30 PM.
-
Not sure if you were saying otherwise, but this is mid-late 30s jazz - all the examples I posted are swing era and a couple are from immediately before the bop era. his is all post Armstrong stuff. When I got into pre-bop jazz I was often surprised by how 'primitive' this music sounded. Later on my ears acclimatised and I started to hear it on it's own terms rather than comparing it to later forms.Ok, so, it is pre 30's Jazz. Will try to get some info. Honestly, I think of Louis Rmstrong type sound and that New Orleans thing as of The Begining. Previous "styles" are not quite there, IMO. Banjo in New Orleans style just about rings the bell, but tere you have all the horns to smash it.
Also remember that what we think of as the definitive 'trad' template recordings, the New Orleans style - King Oliver (1923 IRRC), the Hot 5's and 7's etc - were actually made in Chicago some time after the musicians moved up river. So it's not necessarily a reflection of the original New Orleans style at all. And of course the originator Buddy Bolden is unrecorded (though Louis said the nearest thing to his sound was Miles, intriguingly.)
I actually really hate the banjo. But I love swing guitar. It's a bit of running joke, because most people who play early jazz double. I refuse!!!!!
Where did I say that? If you want to see the use of triads in contemporary jazz, plenty of info out there. My advice would be - transcribe Lage Lund. There's your textbook there. Pat Metheny too, of course.Anyway, I thought you were about aplication in contemporary styles.
Probably because I'm a) probably not very good at it and b) not really playing in a group as you say, and c) haven't got around to to making better videos on the subject. Good point, and I'll bear that in mind when I do these videos properly. But I do start an arrangement of Sweet Georgia Brown at the end of the 'Doodling' video. So there :-).Now listening to these YT examples you posted, they definitely are Jazz, but that's not what your own clips sounded like. As I said, it's likely that only in combination with other instrumets it has true value. Also, playing real tune, in "propper" rhythm, as oposed to some isolated guitaristic "devices", does not hhurt.
My first message was quite rude and dismissive. I thought better of it. I don't want to be a dick.I really "hate" when people edit their message after I've already responded, but guess it's my fault, being fast on response.
Because some people like the way it sounds. Like me. There's not really much more to it than that, and I want other people to enjoy it. Plus I get paid to play this music, so I figure it's good to get into to it a little deeper. Although in practice I just play bebop anyway (at least at the moment.)BTW, why would anybody, except for American ethnomusicologists, know anything about American pre 30's guitar music? I really could not care less. I may actually like the sound, but am not at all interested if it's pre, or post '30s, or '220s. Not that it is not nice to know. So thank you for the info.
Also I am a massive jazz nerd.
Anyway this is all getting terribly OT, for which I apologise to Groynaid.
Technically I have proved my point - but in case you think that anything not based on seventh chords is bound to sound like corny grandpa music, I refer you to the harmony of Antonio Carlos Jobim (authentic Bossa voicings are somewhat different from those given in the real book) and the Barry Harris harmony stuff for starters....Last edited by christianm77; 01-19-2016 at 06:04 PM.
-
You already have. This is not Dick McDonough, it's George Van Eps and the actual title is The Chant. Recorded in Van Eps' home on his brother's 78 RPM disc recorder circa 1934 along with another tune (The Ramble) that he wrote and recorded with Bob Haggart on bass that has been incorrectly attributed to Dick McDonough and Artie Bernstein. Originally Posted by christianm77
-
I did not say you have said it. I've sid I thought you were talking about that, contemporary ... I'm not interested in it the way you are. I'm only interested in listening and classifying ... this I like for that, that I like for something, and that other thing I don't like at all ... Nothing more. Originally Posted by christianm77
I trully believe it will be very good. Hopefully, I won't miss it when it gets published. Originally Posted by christianm77
-
Thanks for that. Gosh darn you Youtube! (Shakes fist.) I didn't know he'd done anything solo that early, but my knowledge of his discography is pretty incomplete. Thanks for the info.... Originally Posted by monk
-
Ah OK then, misunderstood... Thanks - don't worry I'll post it up in a transparent ploy to get more youtube hits when I get around to it :-) I may do some videos more on modern/contemporary stuff as well... Originally Posted by Vladan
-
Christian, I agree that very early jazz can sound jazzy using more or less convemtional classical tonality - meaning 7th chords are used there in a way they are used in classical system. When added to ruthm pattern, phrasing, timbre and sound of soecific instruments... I agree. I think it's a special topic more about history of jazz... I had intereset in it, read some books, besides I like old American music and did some investigation on it... I think this could be discussion - where the jazz starts and why it is already jazz or it is not yet jazz... but here - at least as I understood - we spoke about jazz harmony. Let me stress again that harmony is an inner device, gear of music... namely music.. not performance practice, not fretboard or keyboard organization... and what is important this device is concentrated in pitch relations of sounds... harmony is not rythm... though in real practice harmony interacts with rythm of course... when we learn classical harmony we learn just connection of the triads in 4 voices without any rythmic patterns... because it is namely what the harmony is... maybe it would sound paradoxally a bit.. but it is musical device out of time.. So back to jazz harmony... as I understood you support the idea that triadic approach rooted in Western musical tradition also fits jazz harmony (really harmony as I described above). Your samples show that early jazz could sound jazzy with this traditional vehicle having rythm and phrasing added... ok.. it's also arguable maybe.. because it's too much connected with history and social issues... I mean these players were all white... was Charlie Christian the first to go off this tradition because he was one of the first to come from real blues enviroment? I am not sure... I did not investigate it... just an idea... back to harmony... How would you apply triadic harmony for example to Ellington's musiс for example? Or how would you harmonize 'The Nearness of you' without imitating vintage plectrum guitar style... just chords (not guitar chord shapes - but abstract chords) that would make it sound jazz?
-
Sorry.. I tyoe from another comupter .. the browser does not let mearrange the text properly...
-
so this thread has officially become a different thread
just after i went the extra mile on the triads - ok.
what are we talking about now - very very early jazz guitar???
okay
-
No it's more complex than that. I was merely picking a very clear cut example for the purposes of my argument. Originally Posted by Jonah
Charlie christian was largely influenced by lester young, and a few early jazz players came from a blues background.
Plectrum guitar is one thing - pianists were more advanced than the guitar players of the era harmonically (as always.)
I have no idea what duke is doing but it sure it isn't triads and it isn't seventh chords :-)
Django was moving beyond triads too - in part because he couldn't physically play the 'banjo' style perhaps. He was also listening to ravel and Debussy as a lot of those musicians were. But they weren't thinking in berklee seventh chords. Django was musically illiterate of course.
My argument is not that triads are the only thing because that's a stupid argument. It's actually that seventh chords harmony is not the absolute core of jazz harmony, merely a teaching trope and that maybe teaching improvisation based on triads first is a good idea. In terms of voicings, I think it depends on the style.
In terms of teaching, there are some serious problems with major seventh chords for example. But as post bebop straightahead jazz is essentially played with every thing in root position, the problems are lessened to some extent.
So basically I am in agreement with Jordan...
Note that I actually teach the 7th chord stuff to my straightahead students... But improvisation I teach very much on the triads and I can see an argument for teaching seventh chords as bass + triad because that's kind of how I teach the soloing. It's a thought.
In terms of learning standards, understanding classical functional harmony was a good first step in being able to play changes. So I have to recommend it to my students.
In terms of any musical examples, not possible for the next few days at least.Last edited by christianm77; 01-20-2016 at 06:35 AM.
-
"But they weren't thinking in berklee seventh chords. " Very important note, Christian... I do not know (and honestly... do not care) what they were actually thinking about... it's again more about history... I just listen to their music and try to identify relations... you see Monteverdi obviously did not think about Rameaus' concepts of tonal cadences but he already did use it in functional sense.. he probably did not use it as a term and did not have an elaborated perspetive of it... but he definitely used them as a harmonic device to create realtions and meaning... so after or before berklee ... it does not make any difference in that sence.. "Solitude' by Ellington has very stable Maj7th with 7th on top and it never resolves... how would you explain that with triads?
-
Originally Posted by Groyniad
Yeah sorry it got a bit derailed. Originally Posted by Jonah
-
Originally Posted by Groyniad
Originally Posted by Jonah
See my earlier point regarding the separation between melodic and voicing practices. Another example would be struttin with some barbecue. Originally Posted by Jonah
-
"See my earlier point regarding the separation between melodic and voicing practices." I am sorry I must have missed or misread. Could you kindly point out the post you refer to.. thank you
Reply With Quote
“Shearing style”
Yesterday, 05:26 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions