-
I sometimes hear lines and ideas in my head (when I'm away from the guitar) which sound more interesting/original than the ones I tend to play when I've got the guitar in my hands. I think this is because the mechanics of the guitar tend to take over when I'm playing it, and my fingers keep wanting to play the stuff they already know.
So one exercise I have started doing is to sit with the guitar in my hands, but not playing. Then I think of a tune and try to imagine some cool phrases which are different to what I normally play. When a particularly good one comes along, I stop and immediately try to play it on the guitar. The interesting thing is that I don't find it difficult to play the phrase straightaway, that is not an issue for me. The aim is to try and get my brain generating ideas rather than letting my fingers do it. I find the more I do this, the easier it gets.
Another cool trick is to imagine I'm playing a solo in a style very different from my usual approach, so I might 'hear' ideas in the style (say) of Jim Hall, or maybe a very 'sparse' player like Miles Davis, then I grab each phrase on the guitar. This is good because I end up playing stuff that is completely different to what my fingers want to do when 'left to their own devices'.
-
01-14-2016 01:57 PM
-
I do not think that hearing exactly what others play is really so important unless you have some specific targets... it can be developed...
I guess whe we were kids - and started playing guitar we all heard the question on the parties or somewher else: hey .. can you pick up this song?.. if if we could not at the beginning we soon developed that skill mostly unconsiously...
As a kid I could accompany any conventional pop or folk song even unknow if someone began to sing... after 3-4 bars I could pick it up... maybe I needed a couple of 'false' chords to get into the correct key and then it went smoothely...
the same thing with more complex stuff... if you get into classical - even very developed complex music you soon get to know the style, and the realtions...
that's what's really important - style.. because if you can hear the harmony but you do not know how they played it on piano during Mozart tim you cannot reproduce the music of this period by ear immediately.. you shoul dig the style completely...
And the realtions... musical realstions .. the more complex music the more it involves the form etc... so it's really just time and time dedicated to it.. maybe even you don't do it conciously but just involved in it for love...
But hearing precisely the notes without any refernce to musical language or style... kind of idiotic ability to me... like fantastic skills to reproduce exactly foreign pronunciation without understanding the language ... good for stand-up comedians may be... but not for a real actor
-
Haha- great point! Maybe what I'm hearing (but unable to play in time) just isn't that great.... I mean, how would I know unless it came out right, and I was to record it to evaluate it?.....
Originally Posted by Jonah
Hmmm, you know, that's the first time that thought ever occurred to me, interesting....
-
PrinceP. - Perhaps I am dense, but I don't understand exactly your problem. You hear these wonderful bebop lines in your head but cannot reproduce them on guitar. I have an exercise for you that might really help.
As an aside, this particular exercise is something banal that I stumbled upon working on a recording of Body and Soul yesterday. It is not that easy overdubbing yourself sometimes in terms of timing. So I decided to build up my recording in a manner meant to be precise. Rather than start with a vocal and guitar 'scratch' track as usual, I first recorded a track of simply the bass. Then I overdubbed a second track of just the melody with attention to the tempo and rhythm. Third track was the vocal track. Then before commencing to record the serious rhythm guitar comp track, I decided to just practice over the bass track. I found that was a really great way to conceptualize the comp track and get the rhythm feel down right and tight.
So what I suggest to you is to record a bass track over a metronome click and then overdub vocally your imagined improvisation of a melody. In the case of my recording, my scratch melody track was the actual melody of Body and Soul intended as guides for the final tracks. But if you are hearing these marvelous improvised melody inspired phrases, try to sing them as a recorded scratch track. Then, practice playing to the two tracks you have recorded - your bass and melody vocal tracks.
It is incredible how we can suffer under our self-imposed delusions. In my case I have always somehow believed that serious musical creativity would mean that you take your instrument or sheet music in hand and scribble down a masterpiece that just flows spontaneously as a full born creation ex nihilo. Anything less would be somehow unworthy and trite. The mental image is from movies of Mozart laughing as he feverishly sits at his table scribbling down his symphonic creations. Whether Mozart actually worked in that manner is one issue, but the main thing is that I don't have that level of creative genius. What I need to create a decent melody most of the time is something to play over as a foil for my imaginative melodic "genius". It is remarkable how well this technique works to stimulate your creativity. I need something to improvise over. A bass line is the perfect foil. What this exercise does is impose a minimalist structure - the bass line. But that "limitation" actually releases your creativity by decreasing the limitless possibilities of trying to create ex nihilo. Think about it.
I mention this last part because improvising over a standard is like composing spontaneously under the gun of real time. But it does not hurt to practice. This is the lesson that it has taken years for my consciousness to understand. Just because you have to work at being a good musician does not mean that you are unworthy. This is just one of my self-imposed mental shackles that I had to overcome. And the sorry truth is that such types of mental bonds can keep you from realizing your potential. Or at least mine.Last edited by targuit; 01-15-2016 at 04:36 AM.
-
Interesting idea Jay, something we should all do maybe?...
Whether I record my scatting or not, I can usually work out what I'm hearing, just as I can transcribe virtually anything I wish to. That isn't the problem, the problem is doing it in REAL TIME, as I "hear" it. Maybe if I played sax I'd get close one day, but I'm resigned to the realisation that it's always gonna be difficult if not impossible on the guitar, unless I hear guitaristic (ie, playable) ideas.
I listen to mainly non guitar Jazz, so it influences what I hear, I suppose....
-
Good point, Planet P. But I have a question for you regarding horns and wind instruments. Can they play Bach Partita? If not, it is because they are pure melody instruments. One note at a time. So rather than mourn for what you cannot play, gloat over what you can by comparison to wind players.
No horn envy here! Remember yours is bigger....your harmonic potential, that is.
Last edited by targuit; 01-15-2016 at 07:44 AM.
-
Quick response:
The way you hear changes the faster you play. At breakneck bebop (320bpm) you rely more on prerehearsed lines and the hearing is about how to connect vocabulary.
But hearing, the way I learned it, is about the notes AND the overall phrase. Practice singing phrases, like 2 bar, 4 bar, or 8 bar phrases.
I agree with Reg, I love playing lines off of other instruments. On a jam session, a lot of folks don't wanna do that. But with guys you know...
... It's akin to having a dialogue, but without words. Regardless, it is REALLY fun and forces you to leap outta your comfort zone.
Now I leave to go back to the madness of my job... lemme take a deep breathe before I go under the sea of politics again...
-
Maybe try scatting and playing at the same time, à la George Benson? I can imagine if you did this a lot, it might help train your fingers to follow your thoughts as it were. Originally Posted by princeplanet
-
Well, I can do that, BUT, the big difference is that I scat what I'm playing! Surely most of us can do that to an extent. Playing what I'm scatting is a whole 'nother deal.... I bet even Benson (Godhead that he is) even sings along with what he knows he will play. I bet he couldn't play what I might scat without fumbling. And I'd also wager that there are horn and piano players that just about could... Originally Posted by grahambop
-
Planet - I still don't understand what the difference is between playing the melody to a song - phrases you "hear" in your head - and playing what you might scat. If I asked you to play an impromptu version of My One and Only Love in C, could you do that without breaking a sweat?
In all sincerity I can for a few reasons. One is that I know the song's melody and harmony. Once I have a reference - in this case simply the key - I hear a kind of jukebox in my head. I listen as I play and anticipate where the melody and the music will take me.
I jokingly coined what I call a Zen-like phrase that I think is pretty good. "Follow the melody and the harmony will be somewhere nearby." Especially if you combine the melody with the bass. The harmony happens nearly automatically.
-
Of course you're right. I think the best way to shut me up about all this is to tell me to go learn to play the damn sax already! Originally Posted by targuit
Good point, Planet P. But I have a question for you regarding horns and wind instruments. Can they play Bach Partita? If not, it is because they are pure melody instruments. One note at a time. So rather than mourn for what you cannot play, gloat over what you can by comparison to wind players.
No horn envy here! Remember yours is bigger....your harmonic potential, that is.
See, I absolutely do have horn envy, but I feel to committed (actually addicted) to our chosen weird but wonderful instrument...
I know that if I listen to more Jazz guitar recordings I might start to hear "guitar" in my head. Been listening to early Martino last coupla days, I dig how it's right between Wes and Benson (my two faves). Reckon that if that's all I listened to for a week, I'd start to really "hear" it, y'know?....
-
I really don't wanna answer this question, cos I know what happens next - but I'm not really into learning tunes any more, so I don't care much for other people's melodies. I like to compose my own heads and devote much of my time to improvising over Hard Bop like changes. Really limits who I get to play with, but that's OK. Originally Posted by targuit
-
OK no that's wrong , it is totally do-able PP Originally Posted by princeplanet
there's a youtube of a Workshop with Jim Mullen ... where he demos doing it at a fast tempo... I'll try to find it
totally do-able on our instrument ....
and on Bass too ...
-
No, that's cool. I have to admit that I think one needs to be grounded in the tradition as well, however. This is just my musing aloud. I think the only way to break new ground is to stand on the shoulders of those who went before. When you say "...I'm not really into learning tunes any more...", I presume you know the war horses of the jazz repertoire. Of course, my education in the tradition is incomplete, especially as regards New Orleans style music roots. But I think I'm deep enough in terms of repertoire in the era from Hoagey Carmichael on through today, though I'm no expert on hard bop for sure. I try to know stuff from the Great American songbook essentially. But I get a kick out of learning new jazz tunes every week. Or focusing on certain composers like Jerome Kern or Henry Mancini.
I also love songs with a strong melody than can be sung in a bossa feel or just laid back way like a tune I recorded the other day by Bruno Martino (estate) called "E La Chiamano Estate" - "estate" is Italian for "summer". Bruno did seem to have a thing for it in terms of song titles. Hard bop is more instrumental to me and frankly sometimes exhausting. If exhilarating, too.
-
Maybe it's an age thing. Whether you are a bebop fan or player who loves breakneck tempos. I recall a clip of Joe Pass recorded not long before his death where he quips with that Italian smile and twinkle in his eyes, " I used to play fast! I don't like to do that so much any more....." a minute before he goes out and blisters through a tune.
George Benson is the master in my mind of scatting to his guitar. Then again, he is also a fine singer. I saw an interesting clip recently of his interview with Larry King where he plays a neat R&B song with his band that has a jazzy feel. It is a cool clip to see on YT.Last edited by targuit; 01-15-2016 at 10:37 AM.
-
I think I've seen it. So, do you think he could(immediately) play what I might scat? Or some uptempo Rollins, Bird, McLean, Dolphy? Originally Posted by pingu
Or only what he plays? If the latter, then he is scatting what he is playing, ie, he's playing what he knows.
If the former, then he is a rare musical freak, the kind that no amount of practice will allow you or I to ever aspire to.
-
i don't know .... but he talks about the delay bettween , the sound in your ears and playing it on the instrument .... Originally Posted by princeplanet
getting that delay smaller and smaller till there's no delay there ...
I do aspire to that ...
I'm concerned that you have a mind to give up that aspiration PP
esentially I know there's nothing specific about the guitar that stops you
Last edited by pingu; 01-15-2016 at 05:33 PM.
-
I think your going off the deep end... My favs are also Wes and Benson... and playing their tunes helped me to be able to play what lines I hear in my head. Playing with your thumb also helps create that missing link you might be missing to validate the relationship between the two sources for the lines. For one thing... their always slower...I generally play octaves with thumb, for reading heads and richer sounding solos.
There might be a relationship to the quality of the lines, which also generally relates to organization of the lines... which if at faster tempos ... you start to really loose control of the feel. When I play octaves I generally hear all the notes... when I'm burnin... with pick, I generally hear phrases. Why would I want to hear the filler notes... they're generally just spelling harmony, embellishing or setting up the target notes. The singing think is just not really related... most don't have a good voice, even fewer can sing at faster tempos. Benson was always cool because his voice was beautiful. You ever listen to Andreas O. sing his lines... it hurts, even though he seems to be able to basically cover the note, probable more in your direction of singing what he's playing... remember the talk box tube etc... or maybe
I think Jonah or someone was talking about being able to hear what others are playing. Personally that's one of my keys to comping... I need to hear where their at and where they're going so I can help create the music... Comping isn't a backing tract when playing jazz.
Prince... post some examples of what your talking about ... your playing etc...
-
The times when we see eye to eye are the good moments. So when are we gonna play together, already? Originally Posted by Reg
This is what I realized in the last 2 years of my playing. Comping can be a beautiful experience if you actually take the word to heart: accompaniment--playing WITH someone instead of playing pre-rehearsed chord voicings. Something clicks and all of a sudden: comping is more fun than soloing.
Odd epiphany.
-
Originally Posted by Reg
Haha! The guy's mouth had the better tone!
Yes, I get a bit myopic, and I really do appreciate how you guys humour me, you're all good sports! And I love how you always encourage people to post playing without the "put up or shut up" vibe.... Maybe one day I will!
-
Can't hurt to aim high, right? Or can it? Seriously, life is short for the aspiring Jazz guitar player, you gotta be pragmatic. For me it's about personal satisfaction and I worry that I could be investing too heavily on a very late return. Maybe it's wiser to aim less high and pick at some lower hanging fruit, like, take the time to smell the flowers along the steep path up the Jazz mountain.... Originally Posted by pingu
(or something...)
-
Just because Mullen said it, does not mean that's the way it really is. Maybe he does not really understand what he does.
My stance is - there's no sound of music in the head to be heaard. It's all imagination and auto-suggestion.
There's only the idea of what is to be played and there is experience and ear to guide us through.
These guys singing and playing same thing at once, they don't play what they sing, don't sing what they play,
don't play and sing what they hear in their heads.
They have a musical idea, decide what to play, then they play it and sing it simultaneously, play on 2 instruments at once, 1 guitar + 1 voice.
That's what they do.Last edited by Vladan; 01-16-2016 at 10:18 AM.
-
Vladan - Sorry, but I disagree. Perhaps it is more semantics, but explain to me how you can play a standard. No band, just you and the guitar. Someone requests a standard that you know. You know the song, the melody. How else could you play that tune? One response would be that you memorized it somehow. But even memorization would have to be prodigious to account for knowing fifty or more songs.
I have a decent memory - got through medical school and all - but I don't memorize tunes. I learn them and know how to reproduce what I hear in my head. As do most musicians who play seriously. Look at classical players doing a recital before an audience playing very complicated pieces at times. Yes, they have memorized the piece but when they play they are "listening" to the music.
Simple example. Early this morning I was working on my Sibelius transcription of Alfie by Burt Bachrach and Hal David. Might seem like a relatively simple song, but to create an accurate transcription in terms of the musical notation of the melody and harmony that sounds perfect is a bit of a bitch in terms of the timing of the phrasing. I'm referring here to the melody notation.
I work out the changes by ear literally in front of the computer with Sibelius open, entering the chordal accompaniment on one staff and the melody on another. I have never found commercial sheet music of this song, though I'm sure it is available. But I prefer to do it myself - my arrangement. I have to finish the last few measures but it is a challenging tune to notate. Yet with just the lyric sheet in front of me I can play the tune perfectly well without the sheet music, just listening to the music and importantly anticipating where the melody and harmony are going. This is not an easy tune just off the cuff. But creating an arrangement for me, while not a necessity, is fun and deepens my understanding of the music and the song.
Or simply to look at the issue from another perspective. Your friends are talking about an older song they like. You ask how does it go and someone sings a couple of measures of the lyrics. They have not "memorized" the tune - they are relying on what they hear in their mind. I think music just exists in your mind like a hologram.
-
People learn differently, that I know for sure.
However, giving yourself some sort of sound imprint doesn't hurt.
Right now, my studies are focused on hearing everything.
Single notes in isolation aren't too bad. Hearing a bassline and immediately picking out the pitches... that's tough (but not impossible).
Hearing how harmony is voiced is also challenging, but not impossible.
I have to edit my previous rants. I do use theory, and know theory as well as any performance major can know it. But, here's the thing, I got sick of leaving the theory on the page and the maths in my head. I found that if I could sing the theory and hear the theory in my mind that I could access it faster in the heat of playing with others.
The goal is to make music in the moment with other people, some of whom maybe complete strangers. The beauty is in the connection. That dialogue is harder to come by if you don't know how to access the sounds you hear. Theory helps sort them, but ground them in some sort of sonic reference.
I used the word "challenge" before and it set people off, so I will be more careful with word choice. I encourage people here to try singing through a tune before taking it to the instrument. Then trying singing through it with the instrument in hand. The mind is weird with sound... many musicians have told me that if you hear the notes clear enough and you know the neck of the guitar, your hear will find the note. Recently, I've found some success in that concept.
-
Yes that makes sense. I find that with all the tunes that I know well and can improvise easily on, I can hear the tune in my head, I can hear the chord tones in my head and go through the whole progression, and I can improvise lines in my head. Sometimes these lines sound better than the ones I play when I pick up the guitar, but that's something I'm going to work on this year! (e.g. think of a phrase first, then immediately play it). Originally Posted by Irez87
Reply With Quote
“Shearing style”
Yesterday, 05:26 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions