Guitar Positions

[milestones87]

Hello all and happy new year! Such a great time when I find myself restructuring my practice routine.

So when I first began to study position playing I drew mainly from Ted Greene's Single Note Vol. 1 book. I studied from this volume for quite some time, but not making it through all of his seven positions. I started focusing on what I thought were the "most useful" positions and drew from other works such as Ligon's Comprehensive Technique book to generate exercises. As I look at where I am now, I am really focusing on four positions:

6th string - 4th finger root
6th string - 2nd finger root
5th string - 4th finger root
5th string - 2nd finger root

This brings me to my request for everyone's thoughts. What does everyone think the "most useful" 5th position to focus on would be. I am categorizing "usefulness" as minimizing position shifts through changes. I realize most of these can be framed through CAGED, however I don't conceptualize this way. Also, any position/shape is welcome, not just one of the other three from the Greene book.

I still find myself jumping around quite a bit even though I feel fairly comfortable with the four positions mentioned above. The 1st finger 5th and 6th string positions in the Greene book seem quite cumbersome and stretchy, while not adding much in the way of fret coverage on top of the 2nd finger positions. They will be learned, but perhaps there are thoughts on a better position to work on first.

I appreciate everyone's time, and may your lines be always altered and hip.

milestones

[docbop]

I like the Berklee like fingering they have simple organization.

3 fingerings with root on the 6th string.
3 fingerings with root on the 5th string. They are very similar but except where B string changes things.
1 fingering with root on the 4th string. which to me kind of fills that space when moving from some fingerings to others.

I find when you look at them in that grouping they are very similar except for the 4th string root.

These are real common three note per string fingerings.

[boatheelmusic]

These sound similar to Jody Fisher's fingerings.....

[edh]

Which fingerings sound like Jody Fisher fingers?

[matt.guitarteacher]

6th string - 4th finger root
6th string - 2nd finger root
5th string - 4th finger root
5th string - 2nd finger root

If you take your fingerings above and reorder with roots starting in D:

6th string - 4th finger root
5th string - 4th finger root
6th string - 2nd finger root
5th string - 2nd finger root

.... you've got a perfect cycle of 5ths for 4 key centers D-G-C-F, without changing position. William Levitt would call these type 4 type 3, type 2, and type 1. The next one in the cycle would be type 1A...Key of Bb in that position:

6th string - 1st finger (with a stretch) root

Still the same position as the other scales if you're cycling. If you prefer, you could think of it as:

4th string -2nd finger.

If you're not as comfortable with the stretches , practice them up the fretboard, higher on the neck. It's just a reference point. You can focus on the parts of the scale which don't have the stretches. As you cycle forward each new scale adds only one new stretch.

I prefer working things through the cycle over working things up the neck by position .

[christianm77]

I do the CAGED system I guess, but I tend to use 3 main fingerings (CAE) and slide between them.

[katamaranos]

i think it's neccesary to define what is positional playing. when you move your second or third finger you change position, otherwise you don't. So we've got 12 positions. I think it's good to work out all 12 positions and learn their advantages and disadvantages. I personally don't like those with stretch beetween 3rd and 2nd finger.

[rcpj]

A good thing to work on is taking a tune with lots of changes, like All the things or Moments Notice for example, and be able to play through the changes clearly in one main position allowing for one (max two) half step position change up or down when necessary..this gets your position playing solid..good grasp of of one octave arpeggios important for this..

[Reg]

You always need to start somewhere... but where you want to end up is being able to play... the most with the least.

By that... you want fingerings which are from positions to be able to perform with least amount of effort.

In the end your neck just becomes one big fingering...

So the problems most have with using just a few fingerings... is when they realize that they also need a few more scales, and arpeggios and be able to not watch their neck all the time... anyway most of the time they end up learning a bunch of different fingering for specific scales, arpeggios etc.... with out having organization between them... everything is related to it's self, which ends up hitting technical walls...not to mention not being able to come up for air while your performing.
Start to get in to sight reading, performing at faster tempos... performing music you don't know etc...
Your always having to think and look at what your going to play.

I do get it, just having a few fingerings that still relate to open position playing seems natural and requires you to not reorganized what ever organization you already have in place. And those fingerings seen to naturally fit a lot of music.



RCPJ's advice above is in a good direction... your fingerings need to be able to play a lot of different note patterns.

Most fingerings are based on using maj scales and arpeggios and then altering them... even from just that small collection of patterns... there are lots of problems.

I've always tried to have a basic root referencing organization that works for everything...

6th string roots are the basic references with two octave ranges... I want to be able to play any scale pattern and arpeggio with reference to that root. which led me to 7 positions. I've posted most of this material and logic for the organization in a thread I started a while ago...

I still use and know cowboy chord reference fingerings, use then all the time, some styles, licks etc... just fit better there. I have no problems with technique, brain overload etc... but I also don't get brain overload... with any music I don't know... doesn't make any difference what the organization of the notes are...

It's going to take a year or so to get any set of fingering together... you might as well get some together that covers the most music with the least amount of holes.

[matt.guitarteacher]

A good thing to work on is taking a tune with lots of changes, like All the things or Moments Notice for example, and be able to play through the changes clearly in one main position allowing for one (max two) half step position change up or down when necessary..this gets your position playing solid..good grasp of of one octave arpeggios important for this..

I've always thought this was good in theory, but could never really execute well. I think it's pretty difficult without a teacher of some kind, because really, it end's up being a 12-pattern approach by default. When you play arpeggios outside of the key of the moment, there are probably 2 or 3 ways to play it in position or within 1 fret, and a couple of them look good for different reasons. That's where I think a teacher is really helpful to provide some organization.

Usually, it's an organization based on 5 to 7 patterns, all with reference to each other as a whole. At least as a starting point. Otherwise, you're mixing and matching "in between" patterns and doing a 12-pattern by default. I know 12 is the eventual goal, but 5-7 is hard enough. For me, it was probably working through "All the Things You Are" arp exercises which forced me to just go ahead and knock out reg's 7 positions once and for all. Then, when you see something outside you can at least have the choices limited to a fixed number of options, all of which have diatonic sub options already worked out.

I think what you're talking about works if you have the end-game mapped out in terms of fingerings, how many positions etc. At least you've got a reference for figuring the outside chords on paper or on the fretboard. Otherwise, it's, "Am I working out the best fingering for Am7 in the context of playing in-position on a tune in Ab?", or "Am I finding the closest fingering of my predetermined 5 or 7-position structure for Am7? That one may not be a great example because it's pretty straight forward, but there are often different answers for each question.

[rcpj]

We all have a way to make things work..this exercise is something I've done for ages and is really an exercise in discipline and a fun challenge, not a fixed system, which I advocate to my pupils to get away from just playing the common E/A position shapes, thinking about starting phrases from any chord tone, etc..I find it also promotes and instils a good sense of voice leading. I

[katamaranos]

7 positions seem to be a good compromise - remaining 5 are played mostly on the same frets with different fingers. 1-2 finger stretches vs 3-4 finger stretches. Sometimes things get harder on strings B and G (maj 3rd).
Reg, is your system derivative or parallel oriented (or maybe both)?

[Reg]

7 positions seem to be a good compromise - remaining 5 are played mostly on the same frets with different fingers. 1-2 finger stretches vs 3-4 finger stretches. Sometimes things get harder on strings B and G (maj 3rd).
Reg, is your system derivative or parallel oriented (or maybe both)?

Hey kat....

It's not really either... it can be used in either right, a fingering system is a physical organization of the neck. Generally derivative and parallel oriented refer to the harmonic relationship... right. Is Fmaj lydian a derivative of Cmaj... Tonal organization and the parallel or more in the modal relationship... is Fmaj lydian a version of F maj.

I guess... you could sort of combine both aspects into one concept. I just have always thought of technical or physical organization... and then performance organization... how I use physical organization to realize what I want to play.

So sure... both, but after the fact of why shapes

The fingerings were based on how I believed my hands work... 2nd finger strongest, so best base, 1st finger has best control. And then what is the best organization to turn the neck into one big position. I went to Berklee long after I was using the basic seven position...

[fumblefingers]

I like the Berklee like fingering they have simple organization.

3 fingerings with root on the 6th string.
3 fingerings with root on the 5th string. They are very similar but except where B string changes things.
1 fingering with root on the 4th string. which to me kind of fills that space when moving from some fingerings to others.

I find when you look at them in that grouping they are very similar except for the 4th string root.

These are real common three note per string fingerings.

I assume you are referring to Leavitt's fingerings as follows:
from string 6: 1-A, 2, 4
from string 5: 1, 1-B, 3
from string 4; 1-C

If you do that you could probably do without 1-C, but whatever.


Another strategy that one might use is "CAGED Plus". "CAGED plus what", you say?

"CAGED Plus Leavitt's 1-A and 1-B". And - as alternates to CAGED in higher positions, also utilize Leavitt's 1 and 4.

These fingerings are listed in A Modern Method for Guitar, Volume 3, pages 1 and 2, William Leavitt.

Ciao.

[katamaranos]

Thank you for your reply Reg. I went thru seven positions playing arpeggios ascending-descending. One thing I noticed is that 7th position (Locrian) has some advantages started with 3rd finger, because starting with 2nd involves some 3rd-4th fingers stretches. Started with 3rd also involves some of them, but hmm... they feel less awkward, at least for me.
I've got another question, during a performance, do you stay in a position for a long time? I'm asking because I noticed that in a performance situation I tend to shift for sake of fingering things with 3 fingers or at least avoid stretches - it often feels better. For example 2nd (dorian) position - minor 7 arpeggio played on strings 4321 with 4221 (I prefer that) or 4321 fingers feel a little unnatural. I think I almost always shift my hand to play this starting with 3rd finger. With seven positions (2nd finger on root) you theoretically don't play this arpeggio this way (if you are strict "positionalist"? )
EDIT: Or maybe with neck mapped by seven positions you use any fingering you want?

[jrkelley]

I think 5 positions is the "magic number". Jimmy Bruno shapes approach is good-- similar to CAGED, but with shifts rather than stretches. I believe JBs shapes are the same as the ones used in Pat Martino's Linear expressions.

I "grew up" on the Leavitt fingerings, and though they are essential for going through Berklee MMG I-III, several of the scales are much less practical.

[fumblefingers]

I assume you are referring to Leavitt's fingerings as follows:
from string 6: 1-A, 2, 4
from string 5: 1, 1-B, 3
from string 4; 1-C

If you do that you could probably do without 1-C, but whatever.


Another strategy that one might use is "CAGED Plus". "CAGED plus what", you say?

"CAGED Plus Leavitt's 1-A and 1-B". And - as alternates to CAGED in higher positions, also utilize Leavitt's 1 and 4.

These fingerings are listed in A Modern Method for Guitar, Volume 3, pages 1 and 2, William Leavitt.

Ciao.

Edit: I actually recommend Leavitt's stretch fingerings in higher positions ONLY. 4th finger stretches only in 5th position or higher, 1rst finger stretches in 9th position or higher.


But I'm not 21 anymore, and I play long scale guitars. I understand that others don't mind stretch fingerings wherever...

[fumblefingers]

I think 5 positions is the "magic number". Jimmy Bruno shapes approach is good-- similar to CAGED, but with shifts rather than stretches. I believe JBs shapes are the same as the ones used in Pat Martino's Linear expressions.

I "grew up" on the Leavitt fingerings, and though they are essential for going through Berklee MMG I-III, several of the scales are much less practical.

I must respectfully disagree.

1. CAGED uses shifts as opposed to stretches. I don't have Jimmy's materials but it sounds like he uses CAGED to me.

2. You don't need to use Leavitt's scale or arpeggio fingerings to play through his books. Remember, it's just notes, so you can employ other fingering approaches.

Working out fingering options for all kinds of music is an essential skill for guitarists.

[boatheelmusic]

JB's five fingerings were also taught by Howard Roberts, and are not CAGED.

I and many others use them to advantage, especially for players without long fingers. Nice and compact.

[fumblefingers]

I probably mis-remember this but I seem to recall Reg using a fingering system approach where all modes would start on string 6 from finger 2?

I'm probably wrong but if right would be Leavitt's fingering as follows , from Ionian through Locrian:

2
1-A
1-C
2
1
1-B
1-D

[boatheelmusic]

Which fingerings sound like Jody Fisher fingers?

Learning scales with roots on 6, then roots on 5 and even 4.

[boatheelmusic]

FWIW:

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theor...s-systems.html

[jrkelley]

--1. CAGED uses shifts as opposed to stretches. I don't have Jimmy's materials but it sounds like he uses CAGED to me.

Definitely no stretches in JBs shapes. I recall a few stretches in the CAGED scales, but I could be wrong on that.

--2. You don't need to use Leavitt's scale or arpeggio fingerings to play through his books. Remember, it's just notes, so you can employ other fingering approaches.

The MMG books are specifically designed around Leavitt's fingerings (and almost always specified). Yes, you can ignore them-- but the fingerings are a great deal of the whole point to MMG.

[christianm77]

Yeah, I dunno I shift around a lot, but then I tend to learn things by ear and use fingerings that seem natural. My fingerings are not really the product of any school.

(Although I did spend a lot of time shedding 3 notes a string and modes in all conventional positions when I was about 18. I always found it a beast to get the melodic minor under my fingers though...)

It's probably one of the reasons why my reading is not where I want it. I think positional playing is very helpful for that. But I find the results less musical than the sliding around, vibing it approach...

Also it's a very good idea to practice scales and arps along the length of the strings too...

On the highest level there should be no positions anyway - it should just be the whole neck... There are quite a few paths up that mountain. Cultivate flexibility, once you have some basics together.

An excellent exercise is to use unusual fixed numbers of notes. Playing the melodic minor, say, in strict 2 or 4 notes a string (or 5 notes a string) takes you to some interesting places.

[fumblefingers]

The MMG books are specifically designed around Leavitt's fingerings (and almost always specified). Yes, you can ignore them-- but the fingerings are a great deal of the whole point to MMG.

That's one way to look at it, no doubt.

But stepping back from it a little bit, another way to look at it is that the method teaches "modern" music on the guitar, and scales, chords, and arpeggios in a progressive fashion.

any developing jazz guitarist needs all of that and more. a student can definitely work around his stretchy 1rst and 4th finger scale and arpeggio fingerings, and still get a lot of benefit out of the method.