On-the-spot Jazz Guitar Improvisers?

[princeplanet]

When you are ready to learn, the process will begin.

If you build your ear, the tempos will come...

Do you know of one person who has attained this ability through the training you're talking about? If so, please ask them onto this forum so we can ask him/her some questions.

[Irez87]

I want to get Bruce Arnold on the forum. But I dunno if I can convince him. He studied with Charlie Banacos and uses the same principles as Charlie. Look both of them up on Google. I can continue this conversation on my thread. I promised not to dominant threads with ear training, but this topic goes hand and hand with improvisation. I could also get some of his students that are even more advanced than me to contribute.

But....

I understand the skepticism. We are all wary of snake oil and other gimmicks. But the belittling attitude (not you princeplanet) that I've heard from other members here really pissed me off. These posts, my pod-cast things, my explanations, take time. I am not just talking out of my arse. That's another reason why I created my own thread. I am not here to say who is wrong or right. Difference sprouts originality, and that makes life exciting. What I do get frustrated about is misinformation. I'm a teacher, remember?

[christianm77]

The reason neither of us can know the answer to that question is because we simply do not know what it takes to get to a place where you are truly making up entirely new stuff at fast tempos. All I can say is that I've known people who have put a lot of time into ear training and it has done little to improve their imrov at fast tempi. I do know a piano player who was born gifted, and has never practiced ear training, yet has the fastest ear I know of personally. He plays fast and loves to mix it up so much you can't tell if he's truly improvising every single phrase, or that he has a HUGE arsenal of pre learned ideas.

Ultimately what's the difference at that point if the listener can never tell? Is it any less fulfilling for the player if he knows he's using pre learned bits and stitching them together in new ways constantly? You know that Owens' dissertation on Bird showed a mere 300 or so pre learned ideas that Bird constantly used, but it took decades and someone willing to put Bird's recordings under a microscope probably for years to figure it out. Is Bird a lesser player for it?

I am reasonably comfortable playing fast tempos (280+) and I would describe my experience as pretty much what you have said.

I have found that working on the Barry Harris stuff has increased my lexicon of stuff I can play at tempo, and I think if I shedded enough of this stuff I could get to the point where it approaches the effect of completely free improv. That's what the best BH students have - endless bebop lines without apparent licks or cliches. It's an amazing school actually, very strict and formulaic in the practice room, but really works. You find yourself spewing out this stuff when you play haha.... I have no idea what is going on in my brain. I just practice the stuff and play the guitar *gallic shrug*

That said I really enjoy working on ear based improv at slow tempo ala Tristano at 60-80 bpm. When I actually do gigs I try to do as little thinking as possible so it's hard to say what I do. What I have noticed is that I can now do the slow improv mindset at faster tempos, and that the slower tempos *feel* faster than when I started working on it.

So if the band stand is a zone that defies analysis/conscious thought - I suppose the question is, is it possible to practice completely ear based playing at fast tempos? I am open to the idea, interested to know how this might be done... Perhaps your ears just get faster the more you use them?

[Irez87]

Yes, yes, it is possible. come on over to the ear training thread I started and I'll discuss. I'll see if I can get some of Bruce's old and current students to join if he won't agree to join the forum. Deal, everyone?

I just emailed Sheryl Baily and Mark Whitfield. I'll see what they have to say about studying with Bruce and if they can contribute to my thread. Would that legitimize the whole lot of it?

[gnatola]

Holdsworth maybe the only guitarist who can absolutely improvise at that speed... I suppose there are a few others that come close, but I've always had the impression that Allan's brain just runs at that speed. It's very honest playing, that's what makes it so amazing.

That said, I can't say I listen to him that much, not really my bag.

In terms of repetition, it's an essential part of composition. The classical tradition is the development of varied repetition after all, sequences, imitative counterpoint, sonata form etc.

In jazz we have the riff, but it's interesting that when we get into bop the repetition is much more difficult to catch than in swing. Take the example of Now's the Time - a subverted riff tune through to things like Donna Lee, where there are definite motifs, but they are hard to catch.

Ho many people make a conscious effort to include repetition and development of the melody? listening to Schubert the other day (a theme/variations form piece) I was struck by how much repetition there was. It all creates structure to the listener.

From an interview with Holdworth, here: The Real Allan Holdsworth Interview with Guitar Player

Do you hear solo lines in your head before you play them?
I wish I could hear a solo in my head from the very first note to the very last, but they kind of go their own way. I choose a note to start my improvisation, and I go from there—just trying to make some melody or sense out of it. I often get into problems if I try to think ahead. I do this more with chords, rather than when soloing, but if I think ahead five or six chords and then “hear” a blank spot, there's a 99.9 percent chance that there will be a huge clam when I actually get to that spot. This is because I already know I don't know what I'm going to do! So it's best if I don't think too much.

[gnatola]

From an interview with Holdworth, here: The Real Allan Holdsworth Interview with Guitar Player

Do you hear solo lines in your head before you play them?
I wish I could hear a solo in my head from the very first note to the very last, but they kind of go their own way. I choose a note to start my improvisation, and I go from there—just trying to make some melody or sense out of it. I often get into problems if I try to think ahead. I do this more with chords, rather than when soloing, but if I think ahead five or six chords and then “hear” a blank spot, there's a 99.9 percent chance that there will be a huge clam when I actually get to that spot. This is because I already know I don't know what I'm going to do! So it's best if I don't think too much.

Do you hear solo lines in your head before you play them?
I wish I could hear a solo in my head from the very first note to the very last, but they kind of go their own way. I choose a note to start my improvisation, and I go from there—just trying to make some melody or sense out of it. I often get into problems if I try to think ahead. I do this more with chords, rather than when soloing, but if I think ahead five or six chords and then “hear” a blank spot, there's a 99.9 percent chance that there will be a huge clam when I actually get to that spot. This is because I already know I don't know what I'm going to do! So it's best if I don't think too much.

[gnatola]

Do you hear solo lines in your head before you play them?
I wish I could hear a solo in my head from the very first note to the very last, but they kind of go their own way. I choose a note to start my improvisation, and I go from there—just trying to make some melody or sense out of it. I often get into problems if I try to think ahead. I do this more with chords, rather than when soloing, but if I think ahead five or six chords and then “hear” a blank spot, there's a 99.9 percent chance that there will be a huge clam when I actually get to that spot. This is because I already know I don't know what I'm going to do! So it's best if I don't think too much.

Great. Only the question is being pasted.

[gnatola]

Great. Only the question is being pasted.

Last try:

Do you hear solo lines in your head before you play them?
I wish I could hear a solo in my head from the very first note to the very last, but they kind of go their own way. I choose a note to start my improvisation, and I go from there—just trying to make some melody or sense out of it. I often get into problems if I try to think ahead. I do this more with chords, rather than when soloing, but if I think ahead five or six chords and then “hear” a blank spot, there's a 99.9 percent chance that there will be a huge clam when I actually get to that spot. This is because I already know I don't know what I'm going to do! So it's best if I don't think too much.

[Irez87]

Gnatola,

Yes, yes you can. You can train yourself to hear larger melodic cells of improvised ideas which turn into lines. If you promise to come with an open mind, I invite you to visit my performance ear training thread under "bandstand".

And to answer the earlier question. The answer is yes. You hear differently for slow tempos than with fast. The approach is different. Come to my thread to see my explanation.

[gnatola]

Gnatola,

Yes, yes you can. You can train yourself to hear larger melodic cells of improvised ideas which turn into lines. If you promise to come with an open mind, I invite you to visit my performance ear training thread under "bandstand".

But, how can one possibly be thinking ahead, "I'm hearing this four bars from now," when you have to take care of what's happening in the moment? There are always freakishly talented people in every discipline who defy the norm. But, for the most part, I agree with what Joe Diorio stated in the link I referenced earlier. One's intuition is faster than one's intellect.

[gnatola]

Gnatola,

Yes, yes you can. You can train yourself to hear larger melodic cells of improvised ideas which turn into lines. If you promise to come with an open mind, I invite you to visit my performance ear training thread under "bandstand".

And to answer the earlier question. The answer is yes. You hear differently for slow tempos than with fast. The approach is different. Come to my thread to see my explanation.

i will certainly visit your thread. Thanks for the invitation.

[christianm77]

Gnatola,

Yes, yes you can. You can train yourself to hear larger melodic cells of improvised ideas which turn into lines. If you promise to come with an open mind, I invite you to visit my performance ear training thread under "bandstand".

And to answer the earlier question. The answer is yes. You hear differently for slow tempos than with fast. The approach is different. Come to my thread to see my explanation.

Oh, OK. I think I already do that a bit, although as always I'm sure this can be developed much much further.

EDIT: rereading you post I can see some similarities with Hal Galper's approach - the idea that you are essentially decorating a larger/more slow moving structure - pick ups to a melody in 1/2 notes in Hal's understanding, though I'm sure that's just a specific example/special case of a more general theory.

Probably this will all end up with Heinrich Schenker. The one key thing is already pointing in this direction haha! But I found it interesting to work on modulations from the point of view of the original key this week. I can see what you/Bruce are getting at.

[christianm77]

Yes, yes, it is possible. come on over to the ear training thread I started and I'll discuss. I'll see if I can get some of Bruce's old and current students to join if he won't agree to join the forum. Deal, everyone?

I just emailed Sheryl Baily and Mark Whitfield. I'll see what they have to say about studying with Bruce and if they can contribute to my thread. Would that legitimize the whole lot of it?

I didn't know Sheryl studied with Bruce. I'll be sure to quiz her about it when I see her next week :-)

[Irez87]

You have to be born "special" to do this. If you're "normal" like the rest of us, I seriously doubt that even 10 hours of ear training per day for 10 years will get you close. Some of that time might be put to better use learning vocab, patterns etc, and then learning how to manipulate them to cover all the situations you expect to encounter.

So, planet, care to make friendly wager?

Here it is guys. I've studied Bruce's material for 5 years give or take.

Here's what I propose:

In 5 years, hoping that this great forum is still alive (Mark and Matt really go out of there way to make this place great Thanks guys!)

Okay in 5 years, I need to play a session with a high flyer. My friend Allan plays drums with Kurt Rosenwinkle. James Chirillo played with Wynton. Okay so I have to play with a high flyer under the following circumstances:

1. I take my own solo

2. I engage in a contrapuntal solo with said musician (whomever that maybe)

3. The tune is a bright bebop tune

4. We solo for multiple choruses

5. The solo satisfies the 4 C's of Storyline: Character, Complications, Causality, and Conflict

6. I have a friend film the event and I post it here on the site.

If I don't post in 5 years then:

I am no longer welcome to the site (I will involve Matt and Mark in this wager)

If I do post and it is somewhat successful then:

1. I get an apology from those that slighted me here on the site

2. You all at least try Bruce's material and give it a chance.

In the end it's win win for everyone

What do you think? Is that a fair wager, all? I do think we all make out like Kings at the end. If I loose, I loose the most. But I will honor it not to comb my ego, but to prove a point about Bruce Arnold and Charlie Banaco's material.

[Irez87]

Please do, i am curious as well. Here is Bruce's chart:

[Irez87]

In terms of hearing things four bars in advanced... I'll ask Bruce for a solid explanation. But yes, it is possible.

[Vladan]

They say LOL is out of fashion, so I had to start using it.

[christianm77]

Please do, i am curious as well. Here is Bruce's chart:

I'm afraid this chart profoundly irritates me... Perhaps I misunderstand the intention behind it.

[Irez87]

Sorry for the irritation. The intention is to show to others who don't know Bruce what his lineage is. He loves investigating how the mind processes music. Some might misinterpret him as a fanatic or an egotist. To me, he is a true shaman of music.

He originally posted it as part of his blog (now defunct) to discuss the importance of having a great teacher, regardless of genre. I posted it here because people were all skeptical about Bruce Arnold's methods. Thought this would address those skeptics.

Here are his words from his blog:

The intersections between jazz and classical music have long fascinated me, and within my own music I often use contemporary classical ideas. For the most part this was a personal journey that started bearing fruit back in the early 1990′s from a combination of my interest in hexatonic scales and a thirst for knowledge that was spurred by access to the Princeton University Music Library during my Jerry Bergonz had on me in my formative years and their ways of organizing materials for practice.

I recently found the music education genealogical char of my teachers Charles Banacos and]Jerry Bergonzi. Interestingly it is also a timeline showing the flow of the teaching of classical music into the teaching of its elements as applied to jazz. I think people generally don’t realize how the techniques used in composing and playing classical music are closely related to their counterparts in Jazz.

Looking at the genealogy chart, I also realized that I am the product of these great music teachers, and those who taught them. I owe so much to Charlie and Jerry because they took the time to show me what they knew, all in the cause of education, and that is why I feel compelled to pass the torch to my own students.. Charles Banacos and were gurus in the fullest sense of the word. Every lesson with them was a revelation that encouraged me to study and practice more, and I would not be the musician I am now, without their guidance.

It turns out that the methods I’ve both learned from, and have presented in my books have a long history. They did not start with Charlie or even his teacher, but have been used to educate countless musicians over the ages, many of whom went on to become masters we still admire today. From looking at the Genealogy chart below you can see it’s an impressive list; virtually a Who’s Who of music running from the Baroque period through Classical, and Romantic and right up to Jazz. I am really amazed (and humbled) when I look at this.

http://brucearnold.com/blog/bruce-ar...nealogy-chart/

[GuitarGerry]

But, how can one possibly be thinking ahead, "I'm hearing this four bars from now," when you have to take care of what's happening in the moment?

It can be pretty easy. Check out Monk from around the 3:50 mark onwards.

Is there anyone here who couldn't more-or-less predict what was coming next over those few bars?

In the late 80s/early 90s I worked on using motifs a lot, inspired by Monk, Ornette and others. Eventually I started experimenting with simple classical form (binary/ ternary/rondo/ballad form). Using those techniques it's pretty easy to think ahead...it is a stylised thing though, and can sound contrived if exact repetition of a motif is used every time. Nevertheless...not complicated stuff.

That aside, if I'm playing more flowing/continuous Be-Bop lines then I can only play in the moment. When I'm genuinely improvising there's no thought process going on whatsoever. I just somehow manage to hear where a melodic line wants to go next.

[Irez87]

Vlad, how about ROTFL?

I mean, I'd honor the wager... thought it fair, no?

[christianm77]

Sorry for the irritation. The intention is to show to others who don't know Bruce what his lineage is. He loves investigating how the mind processes music. Some might misinterpret him as a fanatic or an egotist. To me, he is a true shaman of music.

He originally posted it as part of his blog (now defunct) to discuss the importance of having a great teacher, regardless of genre. I posted it here because people were all skeptical about Bruce Arnold's methods. Thought this would address those skeptics.

Here are his words from his blog:

The intersections between jazz and classical music have long fascinated me, and within my own music I often use contemporary classical ideas. For the most part this was a personal journey that started bearing fruit back in the early 1990′s from a combination of my interest in hexatonic scales and a thirst for knowledge that was spurred by access to the Princeton University Music Library during my Jerry Bergonz had on me in my formative years and their ways of organizing materials for practice.

I recently found the music education genealogical char of my teachers Charles Banacos and]Jerry Bergonzi. Interestingly it is also a timeline showing the flow of the teaching of classical music into the teaching of its elements as applied to jazz. I think people generally don’t realize how the techniques used in composing and playing classical music are closely related to their counterparts in Jazz.

Looking at the genealogy chart, I also realized that I am the product of these great music teachers, and those who taught them. I owe so much to Charlie and Jerry because they took the time to show me what they knew, all in the cause of education, and that is why I feel compelled to pass the torch to my own students.. Charles Banacos and were gurus in the fullest sense of the word. Every lesson with them was a revelation that encouraged me to study and practice more, and I would not be the musician I am now, without their guidance.

It turns out that the methods I’ve both learned from, and have presented in my books have a long history. They did not start with Charlie or even his teacher, but have been used to educate countless musicians over the ages, many of whom went on to become masters we still admire today. From looking at the Genealogy chart below you can see it’s an impressive list; virtually a Who’s Who of music running from the Baroque period through Classical, and Romantic and right up to Jazz. I am really amazed (and humbled) when I look at this.

Bruce Arnold?s Music Education Genealogy Chart - Bruce Arnold Guitarist | Rock Artists | Jazz Musician

Hmmm, I find it a little, I dunno... Not sure what to say. I would not describe this list as a Who's Who at all - merely a list of some great classical musicians and a large group of well known US jazz musicians of a similar age range. Nothing against that, it was a great and influential generation, and a special time I'm sure... but... hmmmmm

My teachers have included people who associated directly with Benjamin Britten, John Cage, Dexter Gordon, Charlie Parker, Lee Konitz, Warne Marsh etc etc just off the top of my head. (If you want to be silly, I've jammed with Richard Niles in a fecking Wetherspoons and he knows everyone on that list... haha. My sister briefly had piano lessons with a student of Bartok and can't even play piano ;-))

Regarding serious study - you choose the best teachers you can find, no?

I'm sure if a drew a line going back far enough it would intersect with the great and the good from elder generations.

I'm sure this kind of thing is true for most of us if we think hard enough. Take Henry, for example!

We are all part of this great tradition because it passes on through the tide of human culture, if you seek out great teachers and musicians, you become part of this web of connections.

If Bruce's diagram was intended to illustrate that, then that's cool. He does seem a cool guy.

[vldtovbin]

Vlad, how about ROTFL?

I mean, I'd honor the wager... thought it fair, no?

Irez, i just saw the post. Im kind of out of it from jamming all day long with new found freedom of my ears LOL...what wager im sorry im being a little slow..whad i missed?

[vldtovbin]

oops never mind, just read it big duhhh, its for Vladan who apparently like is still using LOL...

[vldtovbin]

my name is Vlad too sorry for confusion