If you had to pick one jazz style?

**princeplanet** · 02-23-2015, 11:30 AM

Hypothetically, if you were forced to pick one style to focus on forever, which would it be?

Oh, by "Post Bop" I mean Tyner, Hancock, Miles, Henderson etc from say '64 to 68.

I'm just curious to know the current prevailing tastes of the members of this forum, once and for all!

* Please be a sport, just pick one, OK?

I know it's almost impossible, but today I'm gonna say Post Bop. (Tomorrow it might be Modal or Hard Bop...)

And yeah, I know I missed Bossa, GJ and other styles, it's because I stupidly chosen only 7....

**mr. beaumont** · 02-23-2015, 11:56 AM

Post Bop/with a lean towards free.

That's what I really do on my own...most of the music I post here is examples on standards and such, but that's not really me.

**docbop** · 02-23-2015, 12:11 PM

The definition vary so much depending on source so I would say Bop/Post Bop. As said if you study Bop it gives you what you need to play anything and I could play Post Bop style (sneaking in some of the Funky Jazz of the 70's) forever and be happy.

**Reg** · 02-23-2015, 12:27 PM

Yea... i'm with docbop... CTI 70's, still enjoy playing in that style.

**fumblefingers** · 02-23-2015, 12:33 PM

I think a lot of post bop and fusion are modal, so I'm not sure that modal is a style, as such.

**HighSpeedSpoon** · 02-23-2015, 12:53 PM

I don't think "Swing Music" is the only music that swings, but I picked it anyway. The old saying "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing" works pretty well for me.

A very minor nitpick is that I might have added "West Coast", but there are often a great many ways to slice and dice poll categories. Besides, I would have picked Swing anyway.

**princeplanet** · 02-23-2015, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon

I don't think "Swing Music" is the only music that swings, but I picked it anyway. The old saying "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing" works pretty well for me.

A very minor nitpick is that I might have added "West Coast", but there are often a great many ways to slice and dice poll categories. Besides, I would have picked Swing anyway.

Yeah, I was hoping that West Coast lovers would just hit the Cool button, close enough maybe?....

**princeplanet** · 02-23-2015, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

I think a lot of post bop and fusion are modal, so I'm not sure that modal is a style, as such.

Fair point, so can we, for the sake of simplicity, just say that "Modal" might refer to modal based music from late 50's to mid 60's ?

**HighSpeedSpoon** · 02-23-2015, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Yeah, I was hoping that West Coast lovers would just hit the Cool button, close enough maybe?....

You have a point IMO and - truth be told - that same thought occurred to me. There is certainly overlap, for example with players like Brubeck, Desmond, and Giuffre. But some "cool" players (most notably Miles IMO) were east coast guys, and other west coast players were a bit on the hot side to be called cool. Stan Getz is the one that comes most to mind. IIRC many bob stylings are in his music even back then, although perhaps not so apparent in the bossa stuff that made the most radio play.

Still, at the end of the day you have a good point.

**docbop** · 02-23-2015, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon

You have a point IMO and - truth be told - that same thought occurred to me. There is certainly overlap, for example with players like Brubeck, Desmond, and Giuffre. But some "cool" players (most notably Miles IMO) were east coast guys, and other west coast players were a bit on the hot side to be called cool. Stan Getz is the one that comes most to mind. IIRC many bob stylings are in his music even back then, although perhaps not so apparent in the bossa stuff that made the most radio play.

Still, at the end of the day you have a good point.

The Bop players resisted Cool jazz because it was such a different mindset. Instead of having changes that gave you something to play off of with Cool Jazz it was all about creating melodies. Even Coltrane wasn't that fond if it when playing with Miles and went back to playing changes when he left. Years later Coltrane start getting into the modal thing on his own. Playing change is a challenge, but can also be a crutch, coming up with good melodies/lines is challenging.

**EOE** · 02-23-2015, 01:58 PM

you included all styles you said fusion..fusion is all styles...that is what I play ... no limits. pre cool and pre fusion is like a painting with all the trees and people etc already painted by other people and all the room they left you is room to paint a small house in the middle.. I like a more open canvas on which to pant.

**zigzag** · 02-23-2015, 02:13 PM

Since jazz/blues is not a category, I'd have to go with fusion since in my perception of the category, it encompasses a broad range of sounds drawing from many jazz and rock influences.

I'm too sane and too slow for bop.

**fumblefingers** · 02-23-2015, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Fair point, so can we, for the sake of simplicity, just say that "Modal" might refer to modal based music from late 50's to mid 60's ?

Shore.

of course that sounds like post bop, at least to me.

**HighSpeedSpoon** · 02-23-2015, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by docbop

The Bop players resisted Cool jazz because it was such a different mindset. Instead of having changes that gave you something to play off of with Cool Jazz it was all about creating melodies. Even Coltrane wasn't that fond if it when playing with Miles and went back to playing changes when he left. Years later Coltrane start getting into the modal thing on his own. Playing change is a challenge, but can also be a crutch, coming up with good melodies/lines is challenging.

Thanks Doc. That's a very interesting insight and one that I did not know about. Insight aside, it also provides at least one reason why Getz, a master of melodic line, was "cool" even though he could play changes with anyone, and even though he used "bop stylings" (like enclosure and sidestepping etc.) even back then IIRC.

One thing I don't understand is this: I don't think of West Coast or Cool Jazz as modal. Far from it. Am I missing something? Certainly Brubeck, Desmond, Getz, Mulligan, Guiffre etc were not noted for modal playing so far I know, but they are still considered by many to be "West Coast", "Cool", or both. I think that is part of princeplanet's point.

**KirkP** · 02-23-2015, 03:58 PM

"Ted Greene style" for solo guitar or very small ensemble. Or at least my own simplified take on that style.

**docbop** · 02-23-2015, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon

Thanks Doc. That's a very interesting insight and one that I did not know about. Insight aside, it also provides at least one reason why Getz, a master of melodic line, was "cool" even though he could play changes with anyone, and even though he used "bop stylings" (like enclosure and sidestepping etc.) even back then IIRC.

One thing I don't understand is this: I don't think of West Coast or Cool Jazz as modal. Far from it. Am I missing something? Certainly Brubeck, Desmond, Getz, Mulligan, Guiffre etc were not noted for modal playing so far I know, but they are still considered by many to be "West Coast", "Cool", or both. I think that is part of princeplanet's point.

Yes, there was and still is a West Coast vs East Coast thing with Jazz. I lived most my life on the West Coast and prefer East Coast Jazz it has an attitude, a fire and intensity that the West Coast doesn't. Even how player approach their instruments is different. A generalization often used is West Coast players are technicians and East Coast Feel players. As I said that's a generalization so people don't start lighting torches there are exceptions to everything.

**fumblefingers** · 02-23-2015, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by EOE

you included all styles you said fusion..fusion is all styles...that is what I play ... no limits. pre cool and pre fusion is like a painting with all the trees and people etc already painted by other people and all the room they left you is room to paint a small house in the middle.. I like a more open canvas on which to pant.

Maybe it should have said "jazz/rock fusion", the original fusion, at least by name.

the combination or "fusing" of styles beyond that has indeed expanded significantly, practically beyond categorization.

**GuyBoden** · 02-23-2015, 05:23 PM

European Free Improvised Music based on functional and non-function harmonic forms.

**HighSpeedSpoon** · 02-23-2015, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by docbop

Yes, there was and still is a West Coast vs East Coast thing with Jazz. I lived most my life on the West Coast and prefer East Coast Jazz it has an attitude, a fire and intensity that the West Coast doesn't. Even how player approach their instruments is different. A generalization often used is West Coast players are technicians and East Coast Feel players. As I said that's a generalization so people don't start lighting torches there are exceptions to everything.

Yeah, I get it Doc - but in a very general way, as you say. As much as I dig the West Coast vibe - and I do - I admit to thinking of it as being "tidier" and more arranged sounding (which some of it was). The late, great Paul Desmond is the most iconic example that comes to mind. I love Desmond's music and I'm grateful that we have it, but he is hardly the epitome of fire and passion, at least not in my book.

**grahambop** · 02-23-2015, 06:12 PM

That 'west coast' label can be misleading. Don't forget, back in the 1940s there was a hard-swinging scene in LA e.g. Dexter Gordon, Hampton Hawes, Wardell Gray. Later on, people like Mingus, Dolphy, Harold Land, Sonny Criss and Ornette Coleman were active there.

**HighSpeedSpoon** · 02-23-2015, 06:26 PM

Yes, there are exceptions. The Four Brothers were out there too, working for Woody Herman - Giuffre even arranged for them, but I would hardly call Zoot Sims or Al Cohn tepid.

**docbop** · 02-23-2015, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon

Yes, there are exceptions. The Four Brothers were out there too, working for Woody Herman - Giuffre even arranged for them, but I would hardly call Zoot Sims or Al Cohn tepid.

Even today West Coast radio and club tend to be laid back. The Tuesday guitar nights help liven things up.

**pamosmusic** · 02-23-2015, 07:52 PM

I cheated ... To me "fusion" implies music that crosses genres and brings in different stuff. So I picked that one even though I'm sure it means fusion as a genre like electric, jazz influenced rock music a la the 70s and 80s. Oh wrll

**Takemitsu** · 02-23-2015, 08:35 PM

I always saw the difference between east coast and west coast was a matter more or less blues and more or less classical music (read white music) influence.

But I don't see it as geographical...

**princeplanet** · 02-23-2015, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by zigzag

Since jazz/blues is not a category, I'd have to go with fusion since in my perception of the category, it encompasses a broad range of sounds drawing from many influences.

I'm too sane and too slow for bop.

Wouldn't Hard Bop be a possible button for Jazz/Blues guys? I would have thought so more than Fusion, but yeah, whatever.