Playing 12 tones and sound tonal

[docbop]

Vladan, you can pull the string flat by pulling it towards the fret. Takes a little getting used to.

We used to flat a notes back just pushing slightly on the neck while having forearm clamped down on the body. Some people would shudder see us "bend" neck, but it was actually something we picked up from Ted Greene. Ted would move his neck around for full chord vibrato and adjust his forearm pressure to control it. I believe Jeff Beck has used this technique on non-strats to drop a note.

[ColinO]

^^^^
you can also bend up either a whole or half tone and let it slip back to achieve the same thing. I hadn't tried pulling the sting toward the bridge as I think Jake is suggesting - sounds tricky.

[ASATcat]

Vladden you're just simply uncool,, I'll answer any fair question poosed t me.
I don't know what hair you have up your ass towards me but it's very obvious.
I'll take the crap from you only because that's my new thing to not get suspended. Also I've been assured by manyfolks to not be affected by these venomous comments like yours, in other words the community can see through the crap, and I trust that more than I trust you.

[Reg]

Nice grooves, I knew Jerry and the gang. Using all 12 tones yada yada... What's behind the use of all 12 tones, are they embellishments with no organizational context besides the use of... or are there references with relationships with organized methodology being employed.

There are many stages of usages of terms like tonal, atonal and diatonic... and they all stem from references.

Tonal is very relative term... tonal in relationship to maj/min functional music, basically function based on Ionian.

At ant rate, I dig music, have played many gigs also with highly talented musicians... but I generally would call music very tonal and diatonic to the implied tonality. Just because a phrase or short section of harmonic or melodic implications shift from basic tonal or modal center... well opinions can be very subjective.

But generally use of sequential or pattern based harmonic or melodic based movement becomes non-diatonic or atonal when the reference changes... as compared to organizational use of embellishment.

If we want to use terms in basic usage or somewhat 1st levels of understandings or references... we're limiting our levels of being able to discuss. But I'll get into discussion, I dig subjects and enjoy the music. I'm always open to new awareness...

Reg

[Vladan]

Asseat, I have nothing against you. As a matter of fact, I really like your way of thinking, but I don't like the way you present it. Ok, you frightened me, now I run away, before all the crap's taken from me. I could not live without my crap.

[ASATcat]

The two most out of tune tones on the ET fretboard are the given
Maj 3rd and the given b7.

You can hear the b7 the easiest by playing the harmonic slightly flat
or below the 10th fret. That harmonic is Justly in tune with the open string, now play the unbent 10th fret. Good ears will easily hear the
fretted tone to be sharp, that means the fret is out of tune, tuned to
12et or equal temperment.
There is a reason the guitar is 12et and that is so it can be played in all
12 keys, if the guitar was justly intonated it would sound good in only one key, all the other keys would truly way out of tune. When they say Pachabels Canon in D, they mean in just intonation D, a different creature than any other key or ji key.
Thee other interval, the major 3rd is the most out of tune to the harmonic series, or ji. By 22 cents, that's a lot. Lot, but our western ears are for the most part ok with it, we grew up with it.
There is a simple test to hear this out of tuneness that I found and it requires heavy distortoon so you can hear the beating.
Play the A tone at 1/5 (1st string/5th fret, next play C at3/5, in oblique fashion bent 3/5 upwards till it sounds the prettiest (you will hear sympathetic tone decending until it matches tthe 5th string open A). This is the ji maj 3rd this will be the smoothest unbeating tone you can get with distortion on.. Next, play 1/5 and 3/6 together, 3/6 being the C#. With distortion you will hear the sympathetic decending tone hovering aroud Bb, 1/2 step about the. ji's A. With distortion you hear a very irregular and unattractive beating going on. That is the et offering of its major

[ASATcat]

Sorry,, using a phone sucks.
The point is the ji maj 3rd is smooth and the et maj 3rd is rough.
Try it yourself.
And that is the point behind my comment about a big jazz guitar can sound off to my ears and the slide is right on and purdy. And my ears are baby ears compared to Kimocks, and that is part of the reason he was the ears behind the Mesa Mk1 and the early Two Rock prototypes.
Freaking awesome hearing beyond most anyone here (or hear).
And that is the way it is and we just have to live with it.
I'm ok with that. Others have to do the research to cme to that conclusion so, do it if you dare.

[ASATcat]

Diatonic is a seven tone construct period. It typically infers et tuning.
Tonal basically means tones are in reference to a TONAL Center. No scales just relationships.
Atonal such as Crocco is structure without the tonal center as in his solo on Giant Steps, like wtf is he doing becomes the typical responce.
Tonal does not elicit that responce typically, the listener can track the lines in reference to the tonal center in sort of a gravitational pull to the t tonic.
Kimocks game is to use 31 tones, et and other,, to play against that tonal center.
Pushing a tone flat or bending it up is simply part of that game.

Beyond these basic ideas I'm like everyone that is slack jawed by his ability to do this in real time on a fretted guitar.
And as he says it's a hell of a lot of work for the effect, but anything less is sour milk to his sensitive ears.
-- Ripleys believe it or not, lol. Do the hunting to hear it from his mouth not mine.
But be prepared because he will give it to you at his mathmatical level that often simply confuses and blows people out of the water.
It wouldn't hurt to be an acoustic engineer phd lol.
And he calls himself simply a R&R guitar player, self taught by the way.

[JakeAcci]

woops, response went through before i got a chance to edit, hold on a sec:

[JakeAcci]

Tonal basically means tones are in reference to a TONAL Center. No scales just relationships.
Atonal such as Crocco is structure without the tonal center as in his solo on Giant Steps, like wtf is he doing becomes the typical responce.
Tonal does not elicit that responce typically, the listener can track the lines in reference to the tonal center in sort of a gravitational pull to the t tonic.

Ok, now we can get into it. Here's my beef with this:

You use the reaction of the listener to define 'atonal' and 'tonal.' You say that if someone is playing 'atonal' then "wtf is he doing" will typically be the response because the listener won't be able to "track the lines in reference to the tonal center."

That is far too subjective in my book as a definition. Everybody's ears are different and everybody has different experiences as a listener that shape what they can hear as still being related to a tonic. I can think of many examples in my own aural history of things that, upon first hearing, I thought of as 'random' or possibly 'atonal,' and many of those things I now see as very clearly related to a tonic, or tonics that change throughout the piece.

A listener's ability to track the lines back to a tonal center is incredibly dependent on who that listener is - and how fast the line is being played!

I think that atonality is very subjective, what is 'out' or 'random' to some might seem very organized to others, it depends on a lot of factors.

In my mind, since Crocco and Baker are playing over changes and vamps, respectively, it's not atonal even to begin with, no matter what they play. Their improvisation may be less conventionally connected to the harmony of the piece than the music we are used to hearing, but there are tonal centers happening and what these guys play relate to those tonal centers.

Using some subjective language for a sec...there are degrees of 'out' that relate to what we're used to. Obviously the Bryan Baker threads draw some attention because it's further 'out' than the stuff that normally gets discussed on this forum (Pass, Wes, Bird, etc.)

But I don't think it's right to call label anything that is 'out' or makes you go 'wtf' as 'atonal,' meaning that it truly lacks a tonal center.

Anyway, you wrote

Hey Jake it's not diatonic maybe a bit here and there but basically he's using three tnalities over a static chord.

I've really listened to quite a bit of it, and putting the microtonal stuff aside and just talking about 12 pitches within the octave, the vast majority is really in the mode. There are some forays outside, different pitch collections, side stepping, but this is really diatonic for the vast majority. That is not subjective. I mean, we could get really data-oriented about it and point out all the non-diatonic licks he does play...it's only a small part...

So none of this really matters of course, we all should just be practicing and minding our own business, but...

in the jazz world it often seems all twelve tones is license to go out as far as you can.

I strongly disagree with this...all 12 notes are always available, they are available through a variety of channels and approaches, some of these approaches are more conventional than others, will sound more 'out' than others, but use of all 12 tones definitely does not automatically mean 'dissonance.'

Maybe you mean something different by 'using all 12 tones?'

I mean, what note is not available? Which note is 'out'?

[JakeAcci]

I'm sure I'm going to regret running my mouth again, but please dont' take it personally ASATcat. The point of these forums is to learn from each other. I'm open to new information and perspectives if you are. Again my delivery can really suck sometimes but I promise I just want to talk about music, not trying to bash other posters.

[Vladan]

... Kimocks game is to use 31 tones, et and other,, to play against that tonal center....

No sh*t? I say ther's at least 32 tones, et and other, played against tonal center, in Kimocks game.

[grahambop]

You can get a true 'flat and sharp' vibrato on nylon strings.

Classical guitarists use a similar vibrato technique to cellists and violinists. Although the string length cannot change because of the fret, there is enough 'give' in nylon strings for the finger vibrato (along the same axis as the string) to produce a slight decrease and increase in string tension. Enough to slightly raise and lower the note from its 'fretted' pitch.

You can demonstrate this quite easily on a nylon string guitar. Fret a note on the G string, 7th fret, hold with quite a lot of pressure, then push the finger very slightly (but with force) towards the bridge while plucking the string. You can hear the note going down in pitch.

This method has much less effect with steel strings, so on electric guitars that's why most people use the 'lateral' vibrato, which can only increase the pitch.

[ASATcat]

Why are you sure you will regret it, ye has little faith lol.
You make excellent points. I had Baker And Crocco in mind for atonal and Crocco is playing Giant Steps, very hard to hear the changes until he wants you to. One chord vamps are a great pallet for atonal stuff,. With changes, outining the chords are part of the game, an analysis of Coltrane playing GS is an excellent example of that. He outlines the chords all the way through right? But on Love Supreme, a one chord vamp, he uses his Coltrane matrix to stretch the fabric.

Anyway you make excellent points that are respectful and challenging at the same time.

But Jake, to say you listened to four minutes and understand Kimock is just a tad provcative wouldn't you say? So far you haven't let me or us how well you understand the harmonic series and/or how p5ths and maj 3rds create every interval in nature through the actions of multiplying of low primes in contradistiction to reciprocal actions that describe the 5 limit system (or 12 tones we are used to caLling it) and Jake, just becausze I'm quoting out of the book Harmonic Experience does not mean I am any master of this, yes I can generate 5 limit from my mind but 7 limit and beyond is very much confusing and I am only scratching the paint so to speak, it could be like I have an AA in 7 limit and Kimoock has a PhD in it.
I take great pride in calling myself a student for life and Steve does as well. With his knowledge he also just scratching the paint, same with Schenburg and everyone. Too think someone knows it all is the biggest mistake of all and will kill the student inside,, I'm.o of course.

I'm sure I'm going to regret running my mouth again, but please dont' take it personally ASATcat. The point of these forums is to learn from each other. I'm open to new information and perspectives if you are. Again my delivery can really suck sometimes but I promise I just want to talk about music, not trying to bash other posters.

[ASATcat]

Sorry, that's Schoenberg. Check that dude out, very very scary.

[ASATcat]

No sh*t? I say ther's at least 32 tones, et and other, played against tonal center, in Kimocks game.

Well Steve just mentiions 31 tones he has down, beyond that I have no clue, in fact 31 is beyond me =O eek

[ASATcat]

You can get a true 'flat and sharp' vibrato on nylon strings.

Classical guitarists use a similar vibrato technique to cellists and violinists. Although the string length cannot change because of the fret, there is enough 'give' in nylon strings for the finger vibrato (along the same axis as the string) to produce a slight decrease and increase in string tension. Enough to slightly raise and lower the note from its 'fretted' pitch.

You can demonstrate this quite easily on a nylon string guitar. Fret a note on the G string, 7th fret, hold with quite a lot of pressure, then push the finger very slightly (but with force) towards the bridge while plucking the string. You can hear the note going down in pitch.

This method has much less effect with steel strings, so on electric guitars that's why most people use the 'lateral' vibrato, which can only increase the pitch.

and Kimock can use cello vib t push an unwound striing flat. He gave a masters class in Guitar Player on that very topic,, sorry I don't recall the issue but easily found.
Scary shit.

[ASATcat]

Here's Kimock playing fretless and only a minute long, to the point =)

Folks, I find myself in an awkward position.
I am just not qualified to be Kimocks spokesperson. Nor did I ever want that job.
Mstly I wanted to share and perhaps talk about the Coltrane matrix and things I understand enough. Kimock is beyond me, but I sure dig his thing.
I've suggested researching TGP for his raps and also his websight.
But I'm just not capable of speaking for him. I would have much mored sucess talking aboout Wes and Martino.
At least I'm being honest and humble =)

Hope you all like that fretless clip.

I don't want the thread to die, I just want off the hot seat.

Jake, Vladden,, and everyone,,, hope you listened t this one minute clip that demos jujust about everything I've brought up =)

And don't forget
Whirled Peas

[mr. beaumont]

I like Kimock's playing...it doesn't sound nearly as academic as ASATcat's making it sound....I have my doubts it IS that academic...But maybe that's your point, right?

[ecj]

Count me in, Mr. B. I'm hearing guys jamming on modal vamps, playing around with pitch modulation through vibrato and bends. I checked out some clips of Cocco playing Giant Steps, and while I appreciate the skill involved, I'm not hearing anything more complex than what Garzone and loads of other sax players do over this tune.

Call me old fashioned, but I'm far more impressed by players that can manipulate cadences to create beauty than guys who just create theoretical justifications for note flurries. I think there's a reason why Coltrane's solo on Giant Steps still stands all these years later like a monolith. Slow it down and it's still beautiful. The melodic figures, the tension resolution, etc. are all amazing.

With a lot of this atonal stuff, I'm hearing a whole lot of tension but no resolution.

[Vladan]

ASSEAT, you're killing me, like a full featured killin' joke.

[ASATcat]

ASSEAT, you're killing me, like a full featured killin' joke.

Glad I killed you, felt good like scraping shit off my shoe.

That one's a real hoot.
Also Velaidin,, please spell my name cerrictly ko?

I give up, you guys are big time fixed into your own thing, and like vilaideen said it must scare you'all something awful. I bet not one of you checked out TGP and did a search.


Onward to new areas of fraud.
I got a million of 'em. Stay tuned

[JakeAcci]

Why are you sure you will regret it, ye has little faith lol.
You make excellent points. I had Baker And Crocco in mind for atonal and Crocco is playing Giant Steps, very hard to hear the changes until he wants you to. One chord vamps are a great pallet for atonal stuff,. With changes, outining the chords are part of the game, an analysis of Coltrane playing GS is an excellent example of that. He outlines the chords all the way through right? But on Love Supreme, a one chord vamp, he uses his Coltrane matrix to stretch the fabric.

I don't really see any of the above paragraph as a response to any of my points...

But Jake, to say you listened to four minutes and understand Kimock is just a tad provcative wouldn't you say?

Never said that.

So far you haven't let me or us how well you understand the harmonic series and/or how p5ths and maj 3rds create every interval in nature through the actions of multiplying of low primes in contradistiction to reciprocal actions that describe the 5 limit system (or 12 tones we are used to caLling it) and Jake, just becausze I'm quoting out of the book Harmonic Experience does not mean I am any master of this, yes I can generate 5 limit from my mind but 7 limit and beyond is very much confusing and I am only scratching the paint so to speak, it could be like I have an AA in 7 limit and Kimoock has a PhD in it.
I take great pride in calling myself a student for life and Steve does as well. With his knowledge he also just scratching the paint, same with Schenburg and everyone. Too think someone knows it all is the biggest mistake of all and will kill the student inside,, I'm.o of course.

I don't really care about the microtonal element of this discussion and notice I haven't really addressed it any of my posts, including my last one. I'm discussing your statements regarding the 12 chromatic tones. We got 7 inside the scale and 5 out. Of the 12, for the vast majority of Kimock's solo, he's playing diatonically, in the 7. That's all I was saying about his playing.

[mr. beaumont]

so no answer to my question, just a scolding?

Maybe people would have been more receptive if your first post didn't read like a lecture.

[Reg]

this lecture's to heavy for me, best of luck with your studies...