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I had a student ask me about playing in the Dorian mode. He is a young player but he plays other instruments and has a decent grasp of the major scales on the guitar and how to find their relative minor and their pentatonic major and minor scales for simple improvised solos.
I recorded a simple I IV V I chord progression in the key of C using only power chords. I asked him to play over that chord progression in the key of C major (didn't bother explaining it was Ionian yet). Then let him play over the progression in Am Pentatonic, then Cm pentatonic just to give him some varying flavors of the things he already knew.
Finally I asked him to forget that the chords were technically in the key of C (as he understands them now at least) and back up to the B flat finger position (as in standard Bflat major) and kind randomly hit notes during the progression but letting the C be the tonal center and the Bflat being then next most prominent note he focused on. Then asked him to play Gm pentatonic as well, just as a continuation of the varying of the exercise (and to give him an option with the Eflat removed from the mix of notes).
He had fun with it and I think he thought the exercise was cool. He smiled and actually laughed a couple of times as he stumbled across tones he had probably not thought of.
But I wonder, did I mess him up by over-simplifying the concept? I know in some ways the way I explained it is not technically correct, LOL, but at his skill level I didn't know how to teach him something without saying "your not ready for that" because all he would hear is "I don't know what that is well enough to even humor you".
I didn't spend any time yet on "this is Dorian and you flat this and this....blah blah blah...." because I know that stuff confused the everliving crap out of me when I was a kid.
How would some of you approach this so I know better in the future what to do?
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03-14-2013 09:53 AM
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What's the goal of the lesson? To understand modal concepts or simple scale degrees.
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Seems to me an exercise like this would work best if after the fun, discovery part you could tie in the "why"...Why did that Bb sound cool?
When actually teaching modes, I always teach using parallel modes...that's how someone can hear the actual sound. Derivative modes are a cool happenstance, nothing more. I want the student to really understand the sound of a mode before I tell them "And that's just the same notes as a C major scale" or whatever.
I also don't push modes, as I think using them well is an advanced concept. There's a lot of mileage to be got out of the major scale and arpeggios as a roadmap...
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Using a I IV V I progression seems to go against the modal idea. You can just play a drone with open bass strings. Play open E and noodle in E major. Now play open E and noodle with no sharps or flats -- hey that's E Phrygian!
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It wasn't necessarily a formal lesson. It was just a situation where he asked me to explain what was meant by Dorian mode because he had read about it in a magazine article. I did show him where that C is the 2nd scale degree of Bd and that the 2nd scale degree of the major scale is where you find the Dorian mode. Hence C Dorian having the same Key signature as Bd.
I guess the goal of the lesson was to introduce him to different ways of thinking about what notes are available to a player in an improvisational situation by using the Dorian mode as a beginning point.
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Mr. beaumont,
Thanks, I actually intend on showing Phrygian over the same chord progression the next time I see him and letting him compare.....as it is he has already compared it to Ionian (he just doesn't realize he has).
BigDaddyLoveHandles,
I used the I IV V I power chords to demonstrate the melodic differences over a known and common cadence so that he could compare it to prior experiences with that cadence. The drone thing is a good idea and probably in a very technical sense more correct than what I did, but I think most improv happens over chord changes and not drones....especially early on in a student's learning.
I just know that when I was learning and I asked my teacher at the time about modes he just unloaded this unGodly mass of information about flatting the 3rd and the 6th and this scale degree is this and that scale degree is that and it scared, confused, discouraged and frustrated me all at the same time. He was a good teacher otherwise, but I think his lack of understanding on modes just made him throw this encyclopedia of nomenclature at me hoping I would give up on it....and at that time I did. So I am wanting to teach Modes in a non-threatening and systematic way that slowly over the course of a few months outlines the basic concept of what is a mode and how do I find them without having to memorize a ton of new finger positions....which is what a lot of books seem to do???
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I'm all for getting an understanding of the modes before I ever write out a box grid "position" for a student to memorize.
Might only look at one mode at a time too...lots of cats try to teach 'em all at once.
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Just my 2 cents but if you can relate a mode to a popular song (and one that piques the student's interest), that might go a long way towards assimilation. I picked up guitar when I started college in the mid seventies and a couple years in, I took a 'music appreciation class for non-music-majors'. We learned about modes and it seemed kind of random to me. But I happened to be really juiced by Al DiMeola at the time and after plunking around on the guitar (for weeks) to find the modal stuff discussed in class, I had the epiphany that most of his scalar lines were based on the modes. That's all it took for me to fully embrace the concepts and memorize hand positions. I guess it depends on what music your students are interested in though - you might have trouble if their musical palettes favor death metal. (hey, nothing against death metal, just sayin...)
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Are you out of your Phrygian mind????
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Actually that is how I do it too, (loop pedals are the bomb) but sometimes it isn't just about playing over the E. Sometimes you need the context of this is E but where E is the IV.
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Don't do this to him!
By teaching him to sit in a position and hitting random notes, you're basically teaching him that. So he's probably going to think "I'm playing in C, so I can put my finger in Bb and hit random notes". But some people can't transpose thoughts, so if he's playing in Bb, there's a chance he won't know what to do there. As Mr. B said, you need to explain why that works, and work it out in at least two more keys.
Also don't move on to Phrygian if he isn't grasping the concept of Dorian.
The way you want to work scales is around how common it is. I would first work with Ionian, Dorian, Lydian, and Mixolydian (probably introduce Lydian last, as it can be confused with Ionian).
Also following what Mr. B said, teach him the chord tones first. Have him play with only the 4 notes of the chord (or 3 if you're only working with triads, although I recommend using 1357 regardless), and after he can do that well enough, teach him the other notes as upper extensions. Then explain to him that it's actually a scale.
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jtizzle, Originally Posted by jtizzle
I agree that randomly hitting notes isn't truly soloing, but it does allow someone with some sense of melody and harmony to find some spots that are going to be quite obviously different from what he has done in the past. Before you can compose you have to know what there is available, tonally. And, don't take this as being defensive about the method.....because I honestly struggled so bad in learning them that I almost gave up on them. I also don't want to give him a set of rules that say "use this scale over this chord and these notes over this chord change". When I compose a solo I do sometimes go random just to try and trip over something I've never tried. When improvising a solo I work within what I know well. I save experimentation for homework or in a familiar venue or a familiar tune where if somethings doesn't work as well as it sounded in my head, then I can quickly slide back into the stuff I already know.
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That is exactly why you have to follow the natural course of teaching. When you teach him the theory behind what he is doing, he is exactly learning what is available tonally, as well as learning why he can use it.
I really don't mean to put down your method, you teach how you can do it, and it may work, but if you're teaching jazz, there are things you have to do. The fact that you don't want to give him a set of rules can really put a hamper on him really learning the fundamentals to music. It's a building block, and no matter how bad you don't want him to be set on some "rules" that you might find to be too much, he needs to know the basics. I do understand what you mean, but it's a problem people have when transitioning from musician to teacher. A lot of guys forget how it was when they just started, and wish they understood why things worked, or how things worked. Or maybe they didn't even wonder because they didn't even know what to wonder. I sure do look back and think about things I used to play, and when I do, I realized "wow, I didn't know that was in this key" or "I didn't know this was actually a chord" and you realize you could have done better things over that. I wish I had someone explain to me the rules when I was younger. Breaking the rules is great, but it's better left for when you have a certain amount of knowledge of the fundamentals. Mozart didn't do his experimentation with the sonata form because he thought it sounded nice. He did it because he was so in control of the sonata form, he knew exactly how to expand on it and stretch it out. And the same thing can be said for jazz. You can't play crazy outside stuff if you don't know how to first outline chord changes.
I just tell you this because this is almost the same way I learned. I was first taught by rock guys, who didn't know theory or anything, and it was all about power chords and pentatonics. It would have worked nicely for me if I stayed as a rock guy, but as I got into jazz, I saw myself having to make jazz almost like a crash course to get on par with my college level studies. Because of the fact that I didn't really know my fundamentals, I struggled for a while to be able to outline changes. Sometimes it even still feels as a disadvantage I have.
As you say, leaving creativity and experimentation for homework is the perfect thing to do, which is more so the reason why you need to get him to learning the how with you, and letting him do the rest at home.
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whooo... that's the first time I ever heard that...sorry bad joke.
So mbself... do you know the difference between playing a scale from different degrees and calling them modes as compared to playing modally. Not trying to put you on the spot.... it's just most don't. In say twenty words or less.
Just trying to keep it simple...
Reg
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jtizzle.....I am a rock guy...unashamedly new to jazz studies. A grand total of ZERO of my students are interested in Jazz at this point. As I learn more I will try to turn them on to the jazz concepts. But for now I am still teaching testosterone ravaged teenageers. And, as such I am teaching things from the perspective that rock guys (Satriani, Vai, Van Halen etc...) use these concepts differently than do Jazz guitarists. It was nice to have a kid ask about it on his own. Hope for mankind, you know? LOL
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Reg......Heck man, the question was more than 20 words!? Originally Posted by Reg
In my own words......playing scales from different degrees and calling it modal playing is essentially playing in the same key and just approaching sections of the song from different angles and is not true modal playing. For example, if a song is in the Key of C and the Progression is say a run of the mill I vi IV V playing C Ionian, A Aeolean, F Lydian and G Myxolydian I have essentially just been playing in C major (or C Ionian) the entire freaking song and calling it modal playing when it actually isn't.
Actual modal playing is taking that same chord progression and using modal shifts to devise melodies and harmonies to the progression outside of the constraints of the Cmajor (ionian mode) note choices (C through C no sharps or flats). So that for portions of the song you gain access to notes that fall outside of the implied key signature of the original chord progression. Or, in the case of my example, modifying the chord progression to some extent (deleting the 3 degree of the chord and making them all power chords or a suspended 2 chord where the chords take on a tonally ambigous flavor with regards to its "majorness or minorness"). In these cases the use of C dorian becomes available as a primary melodic and harmonic vehicle with the flat 3 and flat 7 providing a certain mood (for lack of a better term) to the song. This doesn't preclude use of other modes as melodic/harmonic options as opportunities arise. But as these modal shifts are made there could be many shifts into and out of the primary key (in this case C Ionian) with flirtations with Ed and Bd in C Dorian mode, Bd, Ed and Ad in C Aeolean mode, and Bd, Ed, Ad and Dd in C Phrygian....not to mention the options available in the Major modes.
I know this rambles a bit, but it is still better than any explanation I ever recieved from any of my guitar teachers. Wasn't anywhere near the 20 words mark, but in fairness to me....there are entire books written to this concept. If I am anywhere near what you were looking for then a couple of paragraphs is hardly excessive. If I am not, then educate me.
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" If I am not, then educate me"...in 20 words or less.
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Woops, I thought it was a picture of Dorian Mode.
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Hey mbself! I just started teaching myself (I have 2 students ha), and it can be quite difficult to succinctly explain some of these concepts. In reality many of them are really pretty simple, it is just hard to explain them simply. I am always looking for that one great explanation.
I am with Mr. B on the fact that the relative thing is 'happenstance'. I think it is easy to use that as a pivot to say 'look where this comes from', especially if he understands relative minor. It is just simply saying, there are five other relative scales, imagine the possibilities! I would also concur to teach them one at a time.
I think gaining access to those colors is a pretty potent experience for a player. With major, minor and minor pentatonic at a basic level you have 'happy' 'sad' and 'bluesy'. The modes give you Spanish (phrygian), dreamy (lydian), 'exotic' (mixolydian) and so on. They all mean so much more, but just getting a teaser of those flavors I think is enough to get someone excited about modes. It might help if you showed him what it is, where it is and gave him a vamp to try it over (the classic Santana ii7-V7 thing works). I don't think what you taught is wrong in anyway. It sounds like a good general way to demonstrate the possibilities, but I'd go more specific next time.
If he understands the relative relationship, does he understand looking at minor and major in parallel? Does he know that if you want to make C Major into C Minor you flat 3, 6 and 7? If he doesn't I would say it would be a good opportunity to instill that in him. Relative thinking lets you explore different colors of a key, but being able to use the modes in parallel opens up the floodgates.
If (or once) he understands that, thankfully Dorian is only a one note difference. I would say try to demonstrate that color difference between b6 and 6. A lot of the shred dudes, especially the 'fusion-shred' ala Guthrie Govan or the previously linked Tom Quayle, get their sound from their usage of Dorian. Santana is a perfect example in a rock context. He pretty much plays minor pentatonic with the 6 added. As I see it that is the Santana sound.
Emphasizing the 6 vs the b6 might be a good way to show him how to use the tensions deliberately. With the exercise you had him do, he was highlighting those notes and seemed to think it was pretty cool. I know for me when I finally tackled landing on 2, 4 and 6 deliberately and often aggressively, it really opened up a lot for me. In a rock context those tones simply have a 'cool' sound.
Good luck!
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