Scales/Modes for Autumn Leaves

[Liarspoker]

Ok the first 3 bars are a ii / V/ I - I am happy enough with that but what about the next 4 bars: F dim / B7 / E-

Which guitar scales/modes would you play over that progression.

[mr. beaumont]

Should be a F# half dim...it's just a ii V in Eminor.

[Liarspoker]

Yes, I stand corrected......and it uses E harmonic minor ( I'd better get cracking on that scale since I don't know it ).

See: http://www.jazclass.aust.com/articles/aut.htm

[mr. beaumont]

Yes you could definitely go harmonic minor there...but why not play off the notes in the chords first? Then juice the chords up a bit...

Scales are only obne way to think, not always the best way for simple tunes like "leaves."

[pierre richard]

I think Bert Ligons site has a few good tunes with arpeggio etudes..

and a LOT more....check it out...

also Bob Kellers jazz page and Jamie Aebersolds site...Adam Good...I have a list that I must get together and post again after some years have passed and new members have come along...

and this great site has much to offer...just look around and read everything here to start..

time on the instrument..pierre

[FatJeff]

I concur with Mr B that the best way for a beginner to approach Autumn Leaves (or any standard, for that matter), is through chord tones. I don't advocate using a chord-scale approach unless you're already at a certain level. Of course, that's just my opinion (albeit one formed through experience).

Pierre also mentioned Bert's excellent site. His method for playing over jazz standards is brilliant.

That said, if you really want scales, you can consult Jamey Aebersold's "scale syllabus" and kind of plug-n-chug into the chords you have in your chart. http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/downloa...e-syllabus.pdf

[JazzReggie]

I think Bert Ligons site has a few good tunes with arpeggio etudes..

and a LOT more....check it out...

Pierre also mentioned Bert's excellent site. His method for playing over jazz standards is brilliant.

This Bert Ligon site sounds great, could someone please post a link? I've found a lot of references to his books, Jazz Transcriptions from USC, Free Stuff from the National Jazz Workshop, the Bert Ligon Trio, etc, but I'm not 100% sure that I've found the right site. The transcriptions seem closest, but plenty of that content is from other people, so I wonder if I've missed something?

[Tom Stewart]

WARNING: I am not a teacher. But here are some of my thoughts about this thing, IMHO. And I have no idea what your level is, so please don’t take offense. I’m just a tiny grain of sand on the great beach of the cyberspace universe.

Here are two rules to live by:

1. The over-riding issue when dealing with an issue in your playing is this: WHAT SOUNDS GOOD TO ME? Trust your own instincts. But be patient if it doesn’t sound great initially. The question is, does this have potential to be a tool that I will likely want to hear in my playing once I master it? The theory is easy to understand, the APPLICATION OF THE THEORY is the really hard part that takes….forever.

2. Only invent and practice exercises that are directly related to the changes of a given tune you are working on. Exercises may sound good in a vacuum, but you must test them constantly against the changes of the actual tune.

The other posters are right about chord tones. You must memorize the changes and play through them using chord tones. This is the easiest thing you can do with the highest payoff. And if you have any doubt about whether playing only chord tones is hip enough, watch this:

To answer your question about chord scales, you need to know about chord function and theory to be able to assign your own. I would highly recommend Hal Crook’s “How To Improvise.” He was one of my teachers at Berklee and I think he is greatest. Also, check out this video of Gary Burton:

It is a long video. But it is, without question, worth watching, very carefully, many times, regardless of your experience level. It contains all the essential basics about playing jazz.

Here are the changes to Autumn Leaves in the Real Book I have, and the chord scales I would assign right now:

A section:
Am7 – C major pentatonic
D7 – A Melodic Minor
Gmaj7 - Dmajor
Cmaj7 - Gmajor
F#m7b5 – A Melodic Minor
B7 – C Melodic Minor
Emin – E Melodic Minor

B Section

F#m7b5 – A Melodic Minor
B7b9 – B ½, whole diminished
Emin – E melodic minor
Am7 – C major pentatonic
D7 – A Melodic Minor
Gmaj7 – D Major
F#min7b5 – A Melodic Minor
B7b9 – B ½, whole diminished
Emin7 G Major Pentatonic
Eb7 – Bb Melodic Minor
Dm7 – F Pentatonic
Db7 – Ab Melodic Minor
Cmaj7 – G Major
B7b9 – B ½, whole diminished
E Min – E Melodic Minor

There are no “avoid notes” with this approach. It is all chord sound. Yet, there is plenty of chromaticism. You can certainly insert “avoid notes” as passing tones, etc, as you wish.

You don’t want to sound like you are just playing scales though. Luckily, there are one trillion things you can do with these chord scales. For example, try “harmonizing” (i.e. arpeggiating) each scale in thirds.

Try taking a figure you like, and is easy for you to play, and running it through all the changes. Just as an example of a simple figure: C Major scale, starting at the seventh fret, across the fretboard:

String 6: b,d, String 5: f String 4: a, c
String 5: e,g, String 4: b String 3: d,f
String 4: a,c String 3: e String 2: f,a
String 3: d,f String 2: g String 3: b,d

Finally – Themes. Motivic development is really key. I bought Ed Tomassi’s DVD not too long ago on the subject. I thought it was great. He breaks it down very clearly:

http://www.berkleemusic.com/store/product?product%5fid=29466&usca%5fp=t

Jazz takes forever. But it’s a fun journey.

[RyanM]

This Bert Ligon site sounds great, could someone please post a link? I've found a lot of references to his books, Jazz Transcriptions from USC, Free Stuff from the National Jazz Workshop, the Bert Ligon Trio, etc, but I'm not 100% sure that I've found the right site. The transcriptions seem closest, but plenty of that content is from other people, so I wonder if I've missed something?

I found this:
http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/Impr...es/FallEtd.pdf

From this section if the site:
USC School of Music

[Liarspoker]

Thanks a lot for the reply guys.

I was up in the middle of the night with my 4 year old and while putting him back to bed I was playing an improv over AL in my head. Mind you the tempo was very slow so that I could think clearly.

Funnily enough I thought in chord tones with a few passing notes.

I must put that into practise today.

[kris]

WARNING: I am not a teacher. But here are some of my thoughts about this thing, IMHO. And I have no idea what your level is, so please don’t take offense. I’m just a tiny grain of sand on the great beach of the cyberspace universe.

Here are two rules to live by:

1. The over-riding issue when dealing with an issue in your playing is this: WHAT SOUNDS GOOD TO ME? Trust your own instincts. But be patient if it doesn’t sound great initially. The question is, does this have potential to be a tool that I will likely want to hear in my playing once I master it? The theory is easy to understand, the APPLICATION OF THE THEORY is the really hard part that takes….forever.

2. Only invent and practice exercises that are directly related to the changes of a given tune you are working on. Exercises may sound good in a vacuum, but you must test them constantly against the changes of the actual tune.

The other posters are right about chord tones. You must memorize the changes and play through them using chord tones. This is the easiest thing you can do with the highest payoff. And if you have any doubt about whether playing only chord tones is hip enough, watch this:

To answer your question about chord scales, you need to know about chord function and theory to be able to assign your own. I would highly recommend Hal Crook’s “How To Improvise.” He was one of my teachers at Berklee and I think he is greatest. Also, check out this video of Gary Burton:

It is a long video. But it is, without question, worth watching, very carefully, many times, regardless of your experience level. It contains all the essential basics about playing jazz.

Here are the changes to Autumn Leaves in the Real Book I have, and the chord scales I would assign right now:

A section:
Am7 – C major pentatonic
D7 – A Melodic Minor
Gmaj7 - Dmajor
Cmaj7 - Gmajor
F#m7b5 – A Melodic Minor
B7 – C Melodic Minor
Emin – E Melodic Minor

B Section

F#m7b5 – A Melodic Minor
B7b9 – B ½, whole diminished
Emin – E melodic minor
Am7 – C major pentatonic
D7 – A Melodic Minor
Gmaj7 – D Major
F#min7b5 – A Melodic Minor
B7b9 – B ½, whole diminished
Emin7 G Major Pentatonic
Eb7 – Bb Melodic Minor
Dm7 – F Pentatonic
Db7 – Ab Melodic Minor
Cmaj7 – G Major
B7b9 – B ½, whole diminished
E Min – E Melodic Minor

There are no “avoid notes” with this approach. It is all chord sound. Yet, there is plenty of chromaticism. You can certainly insert “avoid notes” as passing tones, etc, as you wish.

You don’t want to sound like you are just playing scales though. Luckily, there are one trillion things you can do with these chord scales. For example, try “harmonizing” (i.e. arpeggiating) each scale in thirds.

Try taking a figure you like, and is easy for you to play, and running it through all the changes. Just as an example of a simple figure: C Major scale, starting at the seventh fret, across the fretboard:

String 6: b,d, String 5: f String 4: a, c
String 5: e,g, String 4: b String 3: d,f
String 4: a,c String 3: e String 2: f,a
String 3: d,f String 2: g String 3: b,d

Finally – Themes. Motivic development is really key. I bought Ed Tomassi’s DVD not too long ago on the subject. I thought it was great. He breaks it down very clearly:

http://www.berkleemusic.com/store/product?product%5fid=29466&usca%5fp=t

Jazz takes forever. But it’s a fun journey.

Very good!
I think a little different about first progression:
II V I... V alt and I think more Es min melodic scale over D7b9 resolving to Gmaj7.

[Tom Stewart]

Very good!
I think a little different about first progression:
II V I... V alt and I think more Es min melodic scale over D7b9 resolving to Gmaj7.

I was taught that a dom7b9 chord always takes a 1/2, w diminished chord scale. But on a V7 chord, you can play lots of stuff: altered (which you mention), diminished (1/2,w), whole tone, lydian b7, mixolydian (avoiding the G).

[kris]

I was taught that a dom7b9 chord always takes a 1/2, w diminished chord scale. But on a V7 chord, you can play lots of stuff: altered (which you mention), diminished (1/2,w), whole tone, lydian b7, mixolydian (avoiding the G).

So...am7 D7 Gmaj
you wrote over D7 - a min melodic scale...it is ok on static dominant/not only/.
I prefer D7 with alteration in II V I prog.
I analysed few great solos over"autumn leaves" nobody played /"a" melodic minor over D7 in this progresion....but it is OK.
Emly Remler-discused this thinking in her edu videos.

[Tom Stewart]

So...am7 D7 Gmaj
you wrote over D7 - a min melodic scale...it is ok on static dominant/not only/.
I prefer D7 with alteration in II V I prog.
I analysed few great solos over"autumn leaves" nobody played /"a" melodic minor over D7 in this progresion....but it is OK.
Emly Remler-discused this thinking in her edu videos.

A melodic minor over a D7 chord is a Lydian b7 scale. It renders a 9, #11, and 13. Very common. It agrees with the melody, which has a natural (unaltered) 9.

[kris]

A melodic minor over a D7 chord is a Lydian b7 scale. It renders a 9, #11, and 13. Very common. It agrees with the melody, which has a natural (unaltered) 9.

Tom,
Do you improvise over clean D7 in this tune?
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...mn-leaves.html

[Tom Stewart]

Tom,
Do you improvise over clean D7 in this tune?
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...mn-leaves.html

Look at the last D7 line Scofield plays in your transcription - simple mixolydian. Other places where he plays D7, he is playing an altered 9th, natural 13, suggesting a 1/2, whole diminished scale approach. Elsewhere, he is playing an #5, suggesting an altered approach. I have heard him play a whole tone scale over a dom7, which sounds really cool to me.

It's all good. My point is to the original poster, you might want to experiment with all these sounds and decide what you like best. And even that can change over time and from tune to tune.