looking for a good book on playing 'outside'

[Rich Cochrane]

Hexatonics conceived from a triad/chord pair partners with another triad/chord pair

Yeah, I ran into this idea when trying to think of ways to categorise hexatonics in a musically meaningful way; the fact that the coscale of a hexatonic is another hexatonic makes for some interesting relationships. I do a lot of this kind of playing now, but then I do like a bit of dissonance!

Those Michael Wolff videos are all pretty awesome, BTW.

[fumblefingers]

playing outside? - how about not one, but TWO books?!?




Amazon.com: What Happened to Recess and Why Are Our Children Struggling in Kindergarten? (0639785334217): Susan Ohanian: Books


Amazon.com: FINALLY: The Golf Swing's Simple Secret: A revolutionary method proved for the weekend golfer to significantly improve distance and accuracy from day one (9781449596927): J F Tamayo, J Jaeckel: Books

[JakeAcci]

^ another vote for this one, but be warned: it's not exactly a quick licks type of book. I like Moonray's ideas about being playful, too. Just put on a simple backing track and try some stuff out.

One simple approach is to use what I call "coscales" -- i.e., play with all (and only) the notes that are not in whatever you consider to be the set of "inside" sounds. Typically these make a scale or arpeggio in themselves. Here's a video of Michael Wolff demonstrating this in a modal context:

Come to think of it, it's been a while since I worked with them but I suspect the Ron Miller books on modal jazz give some interesting perspectives.

I'm going to check out Hal Crook's book, didn't know about that one but it sounds interesting.

Nice video presentation primarily designed to encourage experimentation working from a simple idea of 7 principal notes and 5 auxiliary.

Expanding on that idea: What notes are left over from the basic collection in use?

C D E F G A B + Gb Ab Bb Db Eb-----------C Major + Gb Pentatonic (1 2 3 5 6)

C D Eb F G A B + F# G# A# C# E----------C Melodic Minor + F# Pentatonic (1 2 3 5 b7)

C D Eb F G Ab B + A Bb C# E F#-----------C Harmonic Minor + A Pentatonic (1 b2 3 5 6)

C D E F G Ab B + A Bb C# Eb F#-----------C Harmonic Major + A Pentatonic (1 b2 3 b5 6)

C D E F# G# Bb + Db Eb F G A B-----------C Whole Tone + Db Whole Tone (1 2 3 #4 b7)

C Db Eb Fb Gb G A Bb + B D F Ab-----------C Diminished + Bdim (1 b3 b5 bb7)

Hexatonics conceived from a triad/chord pair partners with another triad/chord pair

C Db E F G A (C and Db+ C E G / Db F A) + D Eb F# Ab Bb Cb (Abm and Bb+ Ab Cb Eb / Bb D F#)

C Eb F Gb G Bb (Csus and Ebm C F G / Eb Gb Bb) + A B C# D E G# ( A and G#dim A C# E / G# B D )
C Blues Scale + A Major no 6th (1 2 3 4 5 7)

This way of thinking is kind of a "chromatic modal compression" idea.

I don't know how best to name alternative pentatonic formations, so I didn't venture into that territory.

We've strayed a bit from the original question but it's an interesting topic anyway.

On a V7 two choices are just as common - mixolydian and the altered scale. The notes of those scales together cover the entire chromatic scale except for the major seventh interval relative to this V7 chord. Point is, using quoted techniques above might be a difficult way to get a satisfactory 'out' or 'non functional' sound over a V7 resolving to I. Manipulation of the major seventh interval might be key in crossing over that line.

Thoughts from either of you about being 'out' over V7 relative to these techniques? Since it is convention to use V7 as an exploitation of dissonance before the resolution, I think it's harder to play something surprisingly dissonant just in terms of single note choices.

[Rich Cochrane]

Since it is convention to use V7 as an exploitation of dissonance before the resolution, I think it's harder to play something surprisingly dissonant just in terms of single note choices.

I think so too -- for me "outside" playing is about groups of notes pulling against the harmonic function rather than individual pitches that are considered dissonant against the chord.

[Jimieultra]

If you cant hear it you should not play outside.
I think its the logical way to train the ear first with all the scales and systems before you really can think outside.Yes, playing your stuff a whatever step up or down is great but i think the goal should be the ability to prehear the order of intervals you gonna play. Practising to sing can do wonders here.

[Rich Cochrane]

If you cant hear it you should not play outside.

I agree, although you could swap "inside" for "outside" and it would still be true .

I do find, though, that sometimes I have to shut the practice room door and just play through stuff I can't hear yet... sometimes that's the only way to get it into my ears.

[JakeAcci]

I think so too -- for me "outside" playing is about groups of notes pulling against the harmonic function rather than individual pitches that are considered dissonant against the chord.

Exactly, so then how do we play truly "out" on a V7? The above techniques don't seem applicable, so I'm curious as to other approaches. My first thought is to look at harmony that doesn't seem to function congruently. Example being over G7 to play off of the chord as if it was Ema9 or Bma7.

[Rich Cochrane]

Exactly, so then how do we play truly "out" on a V7?

Good question... in isolation I'm not sure. The Neapolitan scale (1 b2 b3 4 5 6 7) is pretty nasty there. It's basically the "wrong" whole-tone scale, contains the natural 7 and lacks any kind of leading-note into the I, so the resolution gets kind of swallowed up.

A small prize, then, for whoever comes up with the most unacceptable sound over a V7 chord to play at your next hotel lobby gig

BTW I found another nice series of videos on this topic, using a sort of Ornette-ish approach (there are 4 vids in the series):

[beeeastman1]

thanks everyone! Great blog!


http://bollamusic.bandcamp.com/