Melodic Minor (1/2 step above the V)

[doveman]

I'm just looking for something I can remember.

Don Mock's book teaches the Altered Scale (7th mode). So when I hook up the looper and check out these "1/2 step up", "step down" and "up a 4th" methods. I'll compare them to that scale too. I don't want to get overwhelmed with options and then not be able to remember any of them. I'll have to choose some way to access it.

Maybe they just consider this an easier way to remember it? I would wonder why so many would teach this way otherwise? I don't know enough to say. After I get the looper and run through it a few times, it might be clearer.

[bluewaterpig]

Doveman,

I now see what you're asking after watching that video.

What Larry Carlton is saying is that you can use the altered scale any time that a Dominant 7 is functioning as a V7, so in other words, any time a Dominant 7 is moving to a chord that's a 5th (or 4th) away (like a V resolving so a I).

It won't always be V going to I though. Just like he said, in a blues, the I7 works because it's moving to the IV7, with is a fifth/fourth away. The chord that it's moving to can be any quality too.

[doveman]

Doveman,

I now see what you're asking after watching that video.

What Larry Carlton is saying is that you can use the altered scale any time that a Dominant 7 is functioning as a V7, so in other words, any time a Dominant 7 is moving to a chord that's a 5th (or 4th) away (like a V resolving so a I).

It won't always be V going to I though. Just like he said, in a blues, the I7 works because it's moving to the IV7, with is a fifth/fourth away. The chord that it's moving to can be any quality too.

That was making sense to me ... so I'll just try that to begin with ... but I am interested in what you were saying too.

[bluewaterpig]

That was making sense to me ... so I'll just try that to begin with ... but I am interested in what you were saying too.

There's no reason to separate them. In fact, now is the best time to do what I was saying because you're truly learning the scale for the first time.

What I'm saying is that you don't want to learn the scale as the jazz minor. You want to hear it as an altered scale, with the tensions of b9, #9, 3, #4, b13, b7, 1.

And by the way, not to nitpick, but we really should be calling the minor scale that's being used the "jazz minor", NOT the "melodic minor". Melodic minor has b7 and b6 on the way down.

[brwnhornet59]

I spent the morning rereading Don Mock's book "Melodic Minor Revealed" and he mentions the same option that Larry Carlton mentioned in the original post video. Don Mock also mentions "down a whole step" and "up a forth" versions. I've seen this same thing in several other books. I haven't hooked up the looper just yet but it's actually making some sense. Is there a real disadvantage or advantage to learning it this way? Why would guys of this stature teach it this way?

But so I can understand: You mention the tensions on the altered E7 above. So how would you restate what LC is saying when he says A (I) to the D (IV) and the E (V) to the A (I)? What he is saying ... I think ... is that using the BbMM on the first progression and the FMM on the second progression is the tool he's teaching. Is there a way to say it simply for those two instances ... the way you are suggesting? Really trying to learn because I like the sound of it.

Dons Books are GREAT! Sid Jacobs has a really good one as well.

The point that needs to be realized is not what the scale/mode of scales, themselves mean, you need to put into perspective what they mean when playing over a particular harmony. Yo also need to learn the scale and its modes and be able to apply them in what fashion the situation calls for. If I am playing G alt, I am not thinking Ab MM. If I am playing G7#11, (lydian b7), I am not thinking D MM etc...

Short hand memory tags are a great way of remembering tensions on the fly, but what really counts is that you understand what it means and why you are using it that way in the first place. Context is everything. MM is a very powerful tool, as are many note collections, but why are we using them this way? That is the question and the key to the answer!

[brwnhornet59]

And by the way, not to nitpick, but we really should be calling the minor scale that's being used the "jazz minor", NOT the "melodic minor". Melodic minor has b7 and b6 on the way down.

That is a little nit picky. But however YOU choose to look at it is fine with me. When we are drawing tensions from MM, we are Playing the chord tensions from the harmonized scale. That scale or the chords built from it do not include the notes of aeolian, (b6 b7). So in essence you ARE playing MM.

[bluewaterpig]

That is a little nit picky. But however YOU choose to look at it is fine with me. When we are drawing tensions from MM, we are Playing the chord tensions from the harmonized scale. That scale or the chords built from it do not include the notes of aeolian, (b6 b7). So in essence you ARE playing MM.

In essence, you aren't playing the Melodic Minor.

The true version of A Melodic Minor includes the notes A B C D E F F# G and G#, or 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 6 b7 and 7. All of those notes are included in a full melodic minor scale. The melodic minor scale is one of the few scales in all of western music to include both an ascending and descending run that is necessary for analysis sake.

So really, what we're talking about is not the Melodic Minor. It's the Jazz Minor. There's a reason that both scales exist, and the topics that we're discussing in this thread is the exact reason why the term "Jazz Minor" was created in the first place.

[cosmic gumbo]

It's best to get used to the term melodic minor as it relates in a jazz context. We understand it's really the jazz minor, but the jazz police has trouble enforcing the terminology, even at the academic level.

[brwnhornet59]

In essence, you aren't playing the Melodic Minor.

Hey man, thanx for clearing that up. Like I said you call it whatever you want. The classical usage of Melodic Minor is MM ascending, and Aeolian, (natural minor), descending. Western Classical theory would alter either the 6th or the 7th of a minor scale, sometimes both, to allow for their idea's of proper voice leading. A lot of composers did not like the aug triad the natural 7th produces in MM or Hm. Others did not like the dissonance created by the minor 3rd between the b6 and natural 7th in HM, so they would mix it up. That is why they descended in Natural Minor, not Melodic Minor. But of course music theory has evolved in leaps and bounds in the last 300 years.

MM ascending is the note collection we draw from for our chords, modes and alterations in jazz and any form of modern music, when using that scale. I will stick up for your right to call it whatever you want, just do not push it on me, or anyone else, there are more important things to discuss and nit pick about than the names of two scales.

It is all good.