-
Whenever you're playing on a dominant chord going to a minor chord (eg. E7 going to Am7) do you guys actually play a diminished scale?
From what I've been READING it is viable and I often hear musicians playing a diminished arpeggio which sounds great and I have incorporated that into my soloing. But the actual scale I just can't make it work. Actually it's just ONE note that bothers me: the natural sixth. It just clashed with everything.
I use the altered scale and the fifth mode of harmonic minor as a base for improvising in these cases but I've been trying to make it work with the diminished scale. So I was wondering what other people think about it. Any good exercises, licks, solos, anything you can recommend?
Just something I've been thinking about for a while now
Last edited by aniss1001; 12-14-2011 at 01:11 PM.
-
12-14-2011 01:09 PM
-
Yeah, I think when people say they're playing the diminished scale they may actually be doing little more than a diminished arp.
Another idea over that E7 -- E whole tone, especially if comped as E7#5.
-
Ah ok!
And yes I have been playing around with the whole tone scale in these cases and it sounds really interesting. Just need to get it properly into my fingers/ear/head
I also like using arpeggios of the tritone sub for instance (that is if on an E7 I would play a Bb arpeggio)
Ah and it's a funny thing when theory clashes with reality. For instance the books say you can use a diminished scale in these case, but it seems that people actually don't. Also they say that you don't use the harmonic minor a lot in jazz, but that one I hear all over the place
-
The diminished scale only in theory? -- just wait and see when other forum members weigh in on that. I have a feeling I'm frequently wrong about these things
Originally Posted by aniss1001
Ah and it's a funny thing when theory clashes with reality. For instance the books say you can use a diminished scale in these case, but it seems that people actually don't. Also they say that you don't use the harmonic minor a lot in jazz, but that one I hear all over the place
As for the harmonic minor -- like the fifth mode of A harmonic minor played over E7 in the progression E7 to Amin -- I hear that as a "swing" thing. Maybe it's less common with more modern jazz, but please see my previous admission.
-
He he ... I can't wait either
And no I don't think it's only in theory. For instance I use it a lot in blues progressions. It sounds great when on a dominant chord going to another dominant chord. Or on a dominant chord going to a major chord.
I was refferring to the use of it on a dominant going to a minor chord. And in particular how to make the natural sixth sound .. well .. less horrible in this context.
-
1. Well, with E7 Amin, you can pointedly play the C# resolving to Cnat. It should sound like "there, I meant to do that". Originally Posted by aniss1001
2. With a minor ii-V-i, say Bm7b5 E7 Amin, people will play the "B Locrian Natural 2nd" over Bm7b5 (B C# D E F G A B). I think the C# sounds great over that chord, and you have time to turn it back into a Cnat by the time you get to the Amin.
-
Sometimes a scale will almost work. One simple solution is to change or eliminate the problem note(s).
Scales can be a guideline but we choose the notes that we want to hear.
E F G G# Bb B C# D can become E F G G# Bb B C D
The same notes can also be arrived at by combining the notes of harmonic minor V and melodic minor VII
with the addition of an A (the root of your target chord)
E F G# A B C D + E F G G# Bb C D = E F G G# A Bb B C D
You can view this as 2 separate scales that you can move between
or one unified 9 note collection of functional E dominant notes aiming towards Am.
-
Moving from my attempt at a helpful answer to something more nerdy.
Part of the beauty of an 8 note structure is that it yields two independent 4 note chords in the same way 6 note hexatonics yield triad pairs.
Each chord focuses on a portion of what the scale offers in relation to the harmony, in this case E7.
Drawing from E F G G# Bb B C D a few chord pair possibilities:
Fdim and C7
Bb7 and CMa7
G7 and C7+
FmMa7 and Gadd#9
Eadd#9 and Bbadd9
Gm7 and CMa7+
E7b5 and C7sus
-
I agree with the opening post- about the natural 13th in the dim scale. It sets you up to hear a major chord (the 13th is the M3 of the upcoming chord). You could say this is an interesting voice-leading possibility instead of a common-tone, but I personally don't like it. I have played a few tunes that it is required in though (the definitive recording used a 13b9 resolving to a m7 chord).
The actual dim arp is a great choice. It comes from the Harmonic Minor scale (Phrygian Dominant). It's very "inside" sounding and used in most jazz pre-ALT craze (Super Locrian was not common in the bebop era). The Dim arp is the M3 P5 m7 and m9 of the chord-scale.
In the end- experiment and trust your ears. If you like something the best, go for it. If something, however pushed by theory or other musicals doesn't sit well with you, give it a deep evaluation and then make a decision about where it stands in your vocabulary. I certainly have a lot of 1st choices of chords, voicings, scales, and outlines that I prefer over others when I play.
-
Love and hate diminished scales. I tend to stick the the 4 notes of the chord and add other notes that just sound right.
If the E7 could become an E7-9 the ear leans toward a diminished sound; starting with G#, B, D, F - try adding a C and E.
but if the E7 (if altered) would sound better as an E9th I would go with mixolydian or lydian/mixolydian. It all depends on the song i.e. Georgia on my mind (the turn around).
In the case of the -9 sound, I'll agree that simply playing the diminished scale won't sound right. Play the notes within the scale that sound good to you.
as for that natural 6th (C#), it will make sense if you start with a Bmi9th before going the the E13 and Ami. This way the C# will continue thru the first two chord changes. i.e. Laura.
-
PS symmetrical scales are not usually the "default" scales- they rarely sound 100% "inside" unless the composer actually used them in overt ways (as in the use of them in Debussy's music, Juju by Shorter (WT) and tunes with altered dominants with natural 13ths (HW dim). Dim and whole-tone offer interesting color and voice-leading possibilities, but they secondary to the diatonic, harmonic minor, and melodic minor choices, IMHO.
-
What about omitting that note? (I know if I write "avoid" I'll get the following...)
Then you have, over the E7:
E F G G# A# B D E
And you also sidestepped the awkward 8 note nature of the diminished scale.
-
Omitting it makes it ambigous. It could be superlocrian or diminished in that case, whichever way you prefer to look at it.
I prefer altered/superlocrian on minor II-V-I's since it lends it self very elegantly to resolve in that case since it has so much in common with the I-minor.
The augmented triad will be in common in both superlocrian and melodic minor in that particular situation.
For more outside sounds though, there is definately use in the minor pentatonic up a m3rd from the root of the V7th. The intervallic structure dictates more angular lines unless you play pentatonics like a rock player would. I also find the minor pentatonic from the b9 of the V7th to be particularly pleasing even though it defies theory. It creates a delightful dissonance, and if you resolve it correctly, it will work beautifully.
Whole tone is always an option, but you have to be creative with it in order to avoid the trap where it sounds mechanical.
-
Hey thanks for all the posts
I need some time to digest them all, but here are a few replies:
bako:
You used the term "chord pair". What does that mean exactly? And why are "Fdim and C7" and "Bb7 and CMa7" pairs and not "Bb7 and Fdim" for instance? Pardon my ignorance..
JohnyPac:
Yes I also think of the dim arp as coming from the harmonic minor rather than the diminished scale. Hmm.. Phrygian dominant is the 5th mode of harmonic minor right?
And yes I agree that eventually the ear is king, but at the same time I must disagree. I'm rather new to jazz and to me it's very complicated and I need time to get used to new sounds. For instance it took me some time getting used the altered scale. If I had simply "trusted my ear" at that time I would possibly have discarded it as not sounding good. Eventually I got used to it and now it sounds logical to me
Ah and when you say that "symmetrical scales are not usually the "default" scales" you are contradicting several jazz theory books by the way. It is often mentioned that the "default" interpretation of a 7/b9 chord (I believe that is the case in Mark Levine's book "Jazz theory"). And if we're talking chords like the 13/b9 it would be the obvious first choice (not sure any other scale even fits?).
BigDaddyLoveHandles:
Hehe yes I guess omitting the 6th all together would be an option. By the way: does handles mean hooters? I that case I'm all with big daddy haha
Again thanks for the replies.. I'll get back when I have digested them all. Keep 'em comin'
-
Let's just say life gave me lemons and I made a lemon meringue pie. Originally Posted by aniss1001
BigDaddyLoveHandles:
Hehe yes I guess omitting the 6th all together would be an option. By the way: does handles mean hooters? I that case I'm all with big daddy haha
-
Triad pairs or chord pairs are what they say, 2 triads or 2 chords. Bb7 and Fdim are a chord pair.
I was simply focusing on chord pairs that encompassed all 8 notes of the scale I created by changing C# to C (E F G G# Bb B C D).
In this way all the dominant sounds inherent in this note collection can be addressed using a chordal approach.
Ex.
Fdim---F Ab B D and C7---C E G Bb
Bb7---Bb D F Ab and CMa7---C E G B
Your example:
Bb7---Bb D F Ab and Fdim---F Ab B D-----These 2 chords have 3 notes in common and so create less movement.
-
5th mode is right; it's the only one that is used heavily in contemporary music. Mark Levine has tried to bury it in jazz, but the recordings of greats prove that it was (and is) used more often then not. Originally Posted by aniss1001
JohnyPac:
Yes I also think of the dim arp as coming from the harmonic minor rather than the diminished scale. Hmm.. Phrygian dominant is the 5th mode of harmonic minor right?
And yes I agree that eventually the ear is king, but at the same time I must disagree. I'm rather new to jazz and to me it's very complicated and I need time to get used to new sounds. For instance it took me some time getting used the altered scale. If I had simply "trusted my ear" at that time I would possibly have discarded it as not sounding good. Eventually I got used to it and now it sounds logical to me
Ah and when you say that "symmetrical scales are not usually the "default" scales" you are contradicting several jazz theory books by the way. It is often mentioned that the "default" interpretation of a 7/b9 chord (I believe that is the case in Mark Levine's book "Jazz theory"). And if we're talking chords like the 13/b9 it would be the obvious first choice (not sure any other scale even fits?).
I did mention a deep evaluation of the chord or scale at hand. I too resisted ALT at first and had to get used to hearing it. Try everything in every context, then let your ear decide!
I will be the fist to admit many anti-Levine ideas. Check this review out:
MTO 6.1: Rawlins, Review of Levine
It's Jazzology's author's review of The Jazz Theory Book. It was a rude awakening for me and many others- Eventually I found Bert Ligon's alternative books on jazz theory and they are much more realistic.
-
The actual scale is a bugger to get to work but moving triads and other arpeggios by b5 or minor thirds and some other devices are highly effective
-
Here's a youtube lesson I made a while ago on the HW dim scale in progressions.
-
Thanks again. A lot of great replies. You guys are awesome. Just joined a few days ago and I love this forum
And yes the diminished scale is a buggar allright. But I allready have been using it quite a bit in several situations:
* In blues progressions (in particular bar 4 and 6).
* On dominants going to either another dominant or major chord.
* On static dominant vamps.
* On static minor vamps. Here I've been using both the HW and the WH and both are great ways of going outside.
It just bothered me that I couldn't use it in the way that according to the books seems to be it's PRIMARY use: On dominants going to minor.
But I was just playing a bit with it and followed the advice from BigDaddy: resolving the 6th half a step below thereby ending on the 3rd of the minor chord. That actually sounds like "there, I meant to do that" as you said
I have also been playing around with the tritones. The cool thing about the scale is that it contains the notes of the dominant chord as well as it's tritone sub. For instance changing between arps like E7-Bb7-E7-Bb7-etc. sounds great. Or simply the triads E-Bb-E-Bb-etc.
I'll start playing around with the other triad/chords that can be formed from the scale, so again thanks for the replies
-
Ah like I said: I'll start playing around with the other triad/chords that can be formed from the scale.
Any particular exercises you guys can recommend here?
-
I like to take simple licks from scales and chords I know and rework the intervals so that they use the new scale I am working on. Take a dominant Mixolydian lick and replace the P4 with #11, 2 (or 9th) with b9 and/or #9, and bingo! You've got a HW Dim lick that's ready to go.
Reply With Quote
“Shearing style”
Yesterday, 05:26 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions