Why Dorian is the best minor mode (for -7 chords)?

**jster** · 08-17-2011, 02:29 AM

OK, so I was playing around with Impressions/SoWhat and I asked myself why we think in Dorian. Aren't there some other minor modes. Well, we could also try Phrygian, Aeolian, and Dorianb2. Well, I tried them and they don't sound as good. Why not I asked myself? Well here is what I came up with. Don't laugh! The Phyrgian and the Dorianb2 have the b2 which doesn't sound good. Half step from the root. That messes with the root too much! The Aeolian doesn't have that problem, but it has a related problem. The Aeolian has the b6 and that doesn't sound good. That is a half step from the fifth. And the fifth is the best friend of the root and doesn't like to be interfered with either! What cha think?

**jster** · 08-18-2011, 07:14 AM

Well, I guess my question is really either really good and nobody knows or really bad and nobody wants to hurt my feelings and tell me how hopeless I am. Hehe. So which is it? I'll take it well I promise! I won't be crushed. Come on, don't be shy!

**Vihar** · 08-18-2011, 07:40 AM

Because the tunes you mentioned are written in dorian (i.e. the melody is implying that mode)?

**m78w** · 08-18-2011, 07:57 AM

You might want to check out Melodic Minor as a second option when stepping outside of Dorian. Cool sound, no b9 and fits easily under your fingers. Grant Green used this on a version of So What that he did and it sounded great. Check it out.

**JensL** · 08-18-2011, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Vihar

Because the tunes you mentioned are written in dorian (i.e. the melody is implying that mode)?

What he said

And who said that you have to play the same scale the whole solo?

Jens

**bako** · 08-18-2011, 09:33 AM

We can expand the note selection in an extended one chord situation by:

1. adding chromatics to your primary note collection, in this case Dorian

2. implying other progressions centered around the one chord

You can also create improvisations based on other minor modes even though the melody is Dorian.
Aeolian and Phrygian are just darker minor colors.
If you assert those sounds experienced players will follow you and adjust the harmony accordingly.

**jster** · 08-18-2011, 01:33 PM

Thanks fellas. One of you was nice enough to send me a backing track for Impressions. So there was no melody. Still the Dorian sounded best against the walking bass. Maybe the bass is using Dorian so that is why it sounds good?

And we can leave the tunes out of it. If you just play a min7 chord, it seems that the Dorian sounds the best. Isn't there something to my argument against the b2 and b6? Just looking at the b2, isn't that the most dissonant note you can have in a mode? Even more so than the 7 since the 7 is at least below. Isn't that argument basically right? (Keeping within Western musical thinking obv. Hehe.)

Originally Posted by m78w

You might want to check out Melodic Minor as a second option when stepping outside of Dorian. Cool sound, no b9 and fits easily under your fingers. Grant Green used this on a version of So What that he did and it sounded great. Check it out.

Thanks. I was reading about that. But if you were to do that you would have to make sure that the person comping behind you switched to min(maj7) wouldn't you? Or would you play that C# against the C of Dmin7?

**m78w** · 08-18-2011, 01:36 PM

Hey
You can play the C# against Dm7, it creates some tension sure, but if you learn how to resolve it, and get some ideas under your fingers that come from that sound, you can use the melodic minor against m7 very effectively. The point is to create that extra tension, so if the comper played DmMaj7 then that tension is lost, so try it out over a playalong of Dm7 and see what you can come up with.

**jster** · 08-18-2011, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by m78w

Hey
You can play the C# against Dm7, it creates some tension sure, but if you learn how to resolve it, and get some ideas under your fingers that come from that sound, you can use the melodic minor against m7 very effectively. The point is to create that extra tension, so if the comper played DmMaj7 then that tension is lost, so try it out over a playalong of Dm7 and see what you can come up with.

Thanks Matt. Lost a string overnight. Gotta go to the store before I can test. I edited my comment, adding the bit at the beginning. Any thoughts on b2 and b6 being dissonant?

**m78w** · 08-18-2011, 01:44 PM

I think you can use b2 and b6 in the right context, as long as your resolve it and use it as a device to create tension that you later bring to a close that's cool. But again, it'll sound better if you work out some ways to sneak it into your lines at first, and study the greats and try to find examples of how they used this sound in their playing. That will give you some ground to stand on and build from there.

**jster** · 08-18-2011, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by m78w

I think you can use b2 and b6 in the right context, as long as your resolve it and use it as a device to create tension that you later bring to a close that's cool. But again, it'll sound better if you work out some ways to sneak it into your lines at first, and study the greats and try to find examples of how they used this sound in their playing. That will give you some ground to stand on and build from there.

Yeah, no sure. I actually like quasi-Eastern b2 riffs. And of course we learn how to slip them in and resolve them, etc. But it seems like you are perhaps conceding that the b2 is the most dissonant note though?

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-18-2011, 01:47 PM

Why does dorian sound the best (not "best" really, but most consonant) over a min7 chord?

I think this is it, in a nut shell:

If a note is a half-step away from a chord tone, it sounds more consonant if the note is a half-step below the chord tone, versus a half-step above.

Then you can just go through the notes in the scale and see this. D dorian over Dmin7:

D - chord tone
E - half step below F.
F - chord tone
G - midway between F and A, keeping out of trouble.
A - chord tone
B - half step below C.
C - chord tone

Try this with any chord:

* Maj7 -- the lydian sounds more consonant than the major scale.
* dom7 -- the lydian dominant sounds more consonant than the mixolydian scale.
* min7b5 -- locian major 2 (B C# D E F G A)

Again, "best" doesn't make much sense as a term, but consonant does.

**jster** · 08-18-2011, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Why does dorian sound the best (not "best" really, but most consonant) over a min7 chord?

I think this is it, in a nut shell:

If a note is a half-step away from a chord tone, it sounds more consonant if the note is a half-step below the chord tone, versus a half-step above.

Then you can just go through the notes in the scale and see this. D dorian over Dmin7:

D - chord tone
E - half step below F.
F - chord tone
G - midway between F and A, keeping out of trouble.
A - chord tone
B - half step below C.
C - chord tone

Rock and roll. Thanks Daddy. The only thing I would like to imagine is that somehow the root and the fifth have a bit more priority. But I'm a bit confused. I'm not not really sure why a maj7 sounds more consonant than a dom7. Sure the tritone is bad, but the half step should be worse.

**Astronomer** · 08-18-2011, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by jster

Rock and roll. Thanks Daddy. The only thing I would like to imagine is that somehow the root and the fifth have a bit more priority. But I'm a bit confused. I'm not not really sure why a maj7 sounds more consonant than a dom7. Sure the tritone is bad, but the half step should be worse.

C7 has C E G Bb--- The tritone interval (E and Bb) gives the chord its characteristic blues sound.

Cmaj7 has C E G B--- If you notice, Em is hidden within this chord, so the ear hears a hybrid of C major and E minor. I call it the "bitter sweet" sound, because while it has color, it's still holds its consonance :P

Oh, and the root and fifth do NOT determine chord quality. So you have to realize, a C5 "power chord" (C and G) has no major or minor sound by itself. The third and seventh notes are what create chord quality (assuming the fifth remains unaltered)

For jazz guitar, you can play through chord changes while omitting the root (and even the fifth), because like I said before, those notes do not determine chord quality and thus, hold less of a priority (especially if a bass player is present).

**m78w** · 08-18-2011, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by jster

Yeah, no sure. I actually like quasi-Eastern b2 riffs. And of course we learn how to slip them in and resolve them, etc. But it seems like you are perhaps conceding that the b2 is the most dissonant note though?

I wouldn't say it's the most dissonant note of all, maybe of the three modes you mentioned, but for me the most dissonant note is the Major 3rd on a minor7th chord. Michael Brecker used to use it as a passing note with great success, but it's very tricky to use properly.

**jster** · 08-18-2011, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Astronomer

C7 has C E G Bb--- The tritone interval (E and Bb) gives the chord its characteristic blues sound.

Cmaj7 has C E G B--- If you notice, Em is hidden within this chord, so the ear hears a hybrid of C major and E minor. I call it the "bitter sweet" sound, because while it has color, it's still holds its consonance :P

Is it really bittersweet? I can accept that. But I always thought of it as more pure sugar. Especially compared to the dom7. As Big Daddy has pointed out, the issue is one of consonance. Doesn't the maj7 sound more consonant than the Dom7.

I know I'm changing the subject a bit from modes over chords to just chords, but I'm trying to get to the bottom of consonance.

**jster** · 08-18-2011, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by m78w

I wouldn't say it's the most dissonant note of all, maybe of the three modes you mentioned, but for me the most dissonant note is the Major 3rd on a minor7th chord. Michael Brecker used to use it as a passing note with great success, but it's very tricky to use properly.

Wow. Very interesting. But can we explain why that is?

I'm sorry I am moving between two different topics. One dissonant notes against chords. The other just dissonance within chords (or within modes).

**Astronomer** · 08-18-2011, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by jster

Is it really bittersweet? I can accept that. But I always thought of it as more pure sugar. Especially compared to the dom7. As Big Daddy has pointed out, the issue is one of consonance. Doesn't the maj7 sound more consonant than the Dom7.

I know I'm changing the subject a bit from modes over chords to just chords, but I'm trying to get to the bottom of consonance.

Well, yeah the maj7 is more consonant than a dom 7. That's why I was saying that you have to look at the 3rd and the 7th notes to determine chord quality. Tritones (E and Bb) will sound less consonant than a perfect 5th (E and B)

**jster** · 08-18-2011, 02:27 PM

Maybe a big difference is that the maj7 has a perfect fifth in there from 3 to7, while the dom7 has the ugly tritone!

**jster** · 08-18-2011, 02:28 PM

Haha. You beat me to it. Thanks.

**jster** · 08-18-2011, 02:39 PM

Oh, sorry Matt, I misread what you wrote. Not quite as surprising as what I thought you said. I retract my request for an explanation.

Thanks all.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-18-2011, 03:56 PM

I just had this mental image of Pythagoras jamming on a tuned wind chime...

BTW, I'm back from my holidays, and we stopped at this garden store that had some massive wind chimes (7 foot long tubes!). They rang out for minutes. Very zen.