-
LMAO Extra. I kind of did say that mechanical playing could become the norm when only theory and no emotion was implemented, in my original post.
-
07-02-2011 06:13 PM
-
^Ah well I didn't read your original post, but you qualify the statement with "when only theory and no emotion [is] implemented", so as far as I know no one here has argued that theory alone makes you sound mechanical. But in any case that is not important, we are in agreement here; although now that I see your original post, I don't see mathematics as "cold and dry", though that is beside the point.
-
Yeah, I did not really mean to say it that way. I meant that numbers in themselves tend to be raw data that has an unwavering and exact meaning. Obviously mathematics is an art form in the hands of a skilled user segueing it to the ranks of an expressive art. No offence was meant. Just me being short sighted. But I still enjoyed your earlier post. You had me laughing pretty good.
-
I don't know if this has been said since I really didn't read through all the posts (some were pretty long and I wanted to post something right now
).
Anyways, it probably was said, but the more of both you have the better you'll play. It's like when you have a job. You're not gonna do a great job without knowing how to do what you're supposed to do, but you're also not gonna do a great job if you're not putting any emotion into your job (or if you're not happy with it).
So anyways, the emotion is what you're trying to convey through your playing. Theory is so you know how to convey it. It's like talking. To express your emotion, you need to know what to say, but to need to know what to say, you need to feel something.
-
like, say, B.B. King?
Originally Posted by Reg
I guess B.B.and all the people he has thrilled, are just fooling themselves.
-
I agree with having to work hard first, but I think I want to generalize your statement a bit, though not necessarily to please both sides. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
One does need to make an effort to learn theory (and, sparsely mentioned in this thread, technique) to be able to put out something meaningful with legitimate intention. I do feel also that one must go through some "adult" hardships and passions as well, to be able to play with legitimate feeling.
It's like marveling at a child prodigy: The child plays well and is entertaining to watch, but in many cases you get the feeling that the child is just a child, and doesn't really have much to say, and it isn't really until the child becomes an adult that their skill really blossoms and they become a talented artist. As a child, although good at what they did, they were still under development.
It is important to consider several aspects of one's playing, not abandoning any one. This is the justification for "abandoning" or giving some less consideration to things like theory (which many Jazz musicians hold too highly) during live performance.
After all, isn't music about self-discovery?Last edited by zonedout245; 07-02-2011 at 09:10 PM.
-
I do believe BB and the likes have put in the time... trial and error is a great method to learn...it just takes a while. And since Most of this forum deals with Jazz... trial and error can take a life time and even then... most never get there. Originally Posted by markf
There is also a difference between exceptionally talented people and the rest of us...
I do always find it interesting when musicians search for reasons or excuses to cover there.... how to say this with out offending, there is no way... never mind.
Good luck...Reg
-
I say "say it" Reg--it needs to be said.
THough I'll supplant "musicians" with "guitarists." What an excuse filled lazy bunch we are...
-
I was once in a high school big band where I switched back and fourth between piano and guitar. When I played piano we had a trombone player who would cover the guitar parts. (A real metal head who ALWAYS played extremely loud to the point where people started hating the kid.) My director and I started a formula to make him play quietly, we gave him a tenor saxophone part just for s**ts and giggles. Worked like a charm.
People who don't learn theory and play with "emotions" are using excuses because they don't want to take the time and learn it!
People who know theory like the back of their hand and play with emotions are a force to reckoned with.
-
But there are people in certain circumstances who just never had the chance to learn theory and do just use "feelings" because thats all they know.
-
Heavy and relevant topic, but personally I think the issues of "theory" and "emotion" are incredibly nuanced and there's just no simple way to generalize.
Comparing from different styles of music is next to useless - we all know that playing jazz takes more technical and theoretical knowledge (generally speaking) than many other styles of music.
Not to mention, everybody hears things differently and different listeners want something different. I couldn't listen to SRV for ten seconds these days but I'll hear a whole Nirvana album. There's some John Scofield stuff that I think is unlistenable but Metheny goes down smooth for me. Do some of these musicians use "emotion" more than "theory?" No, they are just different cats with different approaches, and I'm one person who hears things in one way.
It's just too complicated and nuanced to put the whole thing in general terms, imo. To pose "theory vs emotion" is just not very useful because the terms aren't easily defined in this context. What is theory? Is knowing the names of your guitar strings theory? Is it theory to know that one sound works with another sound? Is it only theory when you give both sounds, or the relationship of those two sounds, a name?
What is emotion? Too damn vague to define the terms. Isn't it an "emotion" to feel insecure and want to impress fellow guitarists with your chops? Is it "emotion" to "feel" like a m7b5 arpeggio will sound good in the next bar?
I would, however, argue that a more useful (again, just in my opinion) question might be:
What is a desirable mental state to achieve while improvising in a jazz context? If we can imagine that mental state, what concrete steps can be taken to achieve that state? Great book on this subject, though not strictly related to jazz: Free Play. Really changed my life.
-
I feel that most of my personal views are already covered in this thread, but I want to add one more thing to the whole debate.
I've taken part in some free improvisational sessions, written/performed pieces with pure improvisational parts, and done improvisational exercises (improvise a person, improvising with symbols as guidelines, etc). These kind of improvisations have no frames or limitations (although it is different from free jazz) - everything is allowed and accepted. You have to work really hard to find your place in the "chaos", and to get your impulses from your brain to your fingers without letting your subconscious cognitive musical skills "get in the way".
What I have experienced, is that one thing is still the same as when I improvise jazz - the need/will to express something meaningful.
For me, theory is just a way for us to sort out our musical ideas and put them in a usable system that we can rembember and develop. Peter Kivy once wrote "theory is the result of man's attempts to understand music", and that's how I approach theory - as a way to understand and use music to express whatever I want. You can create music without knowing theory, you can create music without applying theory at all - and you can create music by breaking every theoretical rule you know.
But theory enables you to benefit from the experiences and musical development of the many brilliant minds before you, making it easier for you to find your own voice. I really can't see any reason to divide improvisation into "with/without theory"-sides, and agree with JakeAccis more useful suggestion above.
-
"learn the changes and then forget them!!!" -the only way 2 jazz
-
It helps to learn a language before you can try to tell someone a story. I mean who "plays" theory? Take "Giant Steps." Non musicians sitting in an audience are not gonna be impressed by how you played over such hard changes. Musicians usually already can so it doesn't matter. It's all about what you have to say. Now if Joe Blow Ain't Gonna Learn No Theory gets up and plays it, starts doin some greasy bends and some A minor pentatonic licks, it will most likely sound terrible. Idk I don't really understand the thread I guess. I just figured we learned theory to be able to compose and play well over anything we want.
-
To me art is emotions. Its not intellectual.
It´s no trick to have emotions, the trick is to be able to express them in an honest way.
Some players can actually communicate there feelings with just a few chordtones, others needs subs, polyrythms and symmetrical scales,
and some players can´t communicate anything with either.
If a player can communicate feelings, he´s a great player in my book. But i don´t necessarily like to listen to him. Maybe it´s not those feelings im looking for at this stage in my life, maybe i can´t handle those feelings, maybe i dealt with them long ago, maybe i need them later on.
But the player is still an artist, as long as he communicate honest feelings. If it speaks to me or not is really all about my own shortcomings.
-
Playing with emotions and honesty is a skill... just because one speaks from the heart... doesn't make it true or beautiful. Honesty, emotions and ignorance are not excuses to justify how, in this discussion, we play music. If your going to bring honesty into the discussion, we need to be honest about the skills we have or don't have. Getting back to that skill... to be able to honesty express your emotions... through music does require knowledge and the ability to use that knowledge... One of the many talents or shortcomings of musicians is their ability to pick aspects of creating music and ignore others...and then speak (honestly) from their heart with emotions and justify the end result or believe it doesn't require justification. Usually due to not having control or even being aware.
Once we choose to bring Philosophy into the discussion of music... it usually becomes a game of words... and the music become secondary... at best. Part of the problem/solution is we're use to being told how things are... rather than go through the time consuming process of figuring things out our self.
Last time I checked... playing jazz was not a leap of faith...
-
"Getting back to that skill... to be able to honesty express your emotions... through music does require knowledge and the ability to use that knowledge... "
Yes. I agree. I never meant to say otherwise. I didn´t mean to justify ignorance. I just meant to stress the fact, that theory and knowlegde imo only are tools.
"just because one speaks from the heart... doesn't make it true or beautiful"
No it doesn´t. Like i said, for me it´s about communicating emotions. They don´t have to be true or beautiful.
-
Well said PeterTo me art is emotions. Its not intellectual.
It´s no trick to have emotions, the trick is to be able to express them in an honest way.
Some players can actually communicate there feelings with just a few chordtones, others needs subs, polyrythms and symmetrical scales,
and some players can´t communicate anything with either.
Very true Reg!Playing with emotions and honesty is a skill... just because one speaks from the heart... doesn't make it true or beautiful.
The whole idea is being balanced. Playing with feeling does not occur just because the player feels something. It occurs because the player took the long journey of learning how to convey what he feel's to others by practicing many many many hours and combining that with the practiced knowledge that also took many many many hours and then the skill's set of technique practiced for many many many many many hours to make it all natural and flowing in their musical conversation.
Knowledge is power. Emotion is human. Technique is utilization and actualization. Combined they make true art.Last edited by brwnhornet59; 07-05-2011 at 04:23 PM.
-
forget what ?
Learn as much as you can about everything...Then forget it!
-
Yea... what tune were we playing...am I still at this session...
-
finish your sentence Reg; you want to be insulting, without offending? Originally Posted by Reg
I question one thing you said, and you respond with an insult about me being what? lousy, or lazy or both?
-
I'll let Reg speak for himself, but I took it as a blanket statement to guitarists in general, not pointed at you.
That's where my follow up comment is pointed as well, to the guitar players of the world, not "markf."
-
I'm sure many of you are familiar with the mark levine jazz theory book?
well in one of the first pages he says and i quote
Jazz improvisation in soloing and backing up is 99% logical and 1% magic
-
If I offended... sorry. I don't know you personally Mark. And yes my comment was directed to musicians in general... More of a reflection to how this topic discussion was developing. We could change to guitarist, and would probable be more accurate, simply because there are so many, and if we came up with a method of rating musicianship, which would include playing or improving with emotions, I'm fairly sure guitarist would be near if not the bottom of that list. Originally Posted by markf
There were many comments which basically said your not playing anything worth a shit unless you have this skill were calling emotions and there not "real" unless someone says so... I didn't take it personal.
I took it as a relative point to the discussion and in the end... would agree. I just believe without musicianship,(which I can very easily define), the emotions don't really speak very well. Again... I am not making comments about anyone personally... if it comes off that way... I apologize. Reg
-
Wes was NOT unschooled, he knew a good deal about music theory. Maybe he didn't read but he understood a great deal more than popular internet wisdom. Originally Posted by jazzjew7890
Reply With Quote
“Shearing style”
Yesterday, 05:26 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions