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Well, the longer I played jazz the more I noticed that a lot of composers really favor these chords. But I never really felt too comfortable playing on them, since I was so ingrained with hitting 3rds and 7s all the time.
I like that these chords allow you to sound a little more angular, and the resolution is a little more mysterious, or ambiguous. In any case I only have a few ideas of what works well. Looking for more.
Take a tune like Wayne Shorters "Fall" The first chord.
So all I can think of right now, I sort of resort to two things. The minor pentatonic of the root of the chord. So if the chord is F#7sus I play F#minor pentatonic.
I also realize that playing the minor pentatonic up a fifth works well, because on a guitar the way you might shape this chord you can see it has all those notes in it too, so I might go with C# minor pentatonic.
Or I may just play mixolydian on it and simply not resolve to the third, or try to play a lot of intervals that are 4ths and 5ths. Or just do some slide slipping to build tension.
But I get the feeling I am missing some possibilities or a sound that is more intended for when you see these chords. Or maybe I just need to work on it a bit more. Playing on a piano might be a good idea too.
Any one else have interesting or useful approach to playing over this type of chord?
thanks,
Brian
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06-27-2011 01:39 AM
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Roy Patterson showed me a great 4-note scale to use over sus chords, R-2-4-5, so for Csus4 it would be C-D-F-G, nothing fancy, but the fifths that are found in the scale, as well as the fourths, really give a cool modern sound that outlines the sus quality of the chord.
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Try B D# E F#. It sounds great over the 7sus 4 . It is a cool arp if you take the time to find the variations. I usually slide into the F# depending on the fingering.
Last edited by brwnhornet59; 06-27-2011 at 08:11 AM.
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Cheers-now I have "Oh when the Saints" Going through my head for the day!
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# the 4th and ya get the Jetsons!
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Here you go, I hope this is useful:
Want to hear some of these sounds on standards? Look up Ed Bickert.
Enjoy
David
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Great player Truth. I don't know him, but I will!
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everyone should know Lorne, he's a monster player AND a great teacher and a great guy. I try to hip him to as many ppl as possible.
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Over a C7sus4 for "inside" I generally think this, in this order
Play off a Bb major triad, playing lines that resolve to chord tones of Bb or Bbmaj7 (taken from a C mixolydian chord scale, or Bb lydian, or key of F, however one wants to think of it
Play off Gm pentatonic
Play off a hybrid Gm/Dm pentatonic, I might play a line that has Gm pentatonic in lower registers, but as the pitch ascends the Bbs change to As and it's really Dm pentatonic.
That's my standard bag of tricks...but I think to outline a major triad or major seventh chord a whole step below is melodic, simple, and sounds appropriate to my ears.
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I pretty much use sus chords on just about everything I play. I mean what's a II V... a Vsus V. I interplay Minor 11ths with dom sus chords all the time and my favorite use is Mixing Sus and V7#11 chords.
Here's an example of a re-harm I did quickly for "How Insensitive", half the changes are forms of sus chords, the second video shows the changes... Reg
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Here's a Blues tune I wrote called "In the Pocket", sorry about the solo, it sucks, I'm not sure what I was thinking about... but almost all sus chords, here's the changes...
C7sus................. / Bb13sus.. Bb9#11. / F13sus....... / C7sus...F7alt
Bb13sus..Bb9#11 / Bb13....... Bb13sus / F9sus.. C-11 / A-7..D7#9b13
Ab13sus............. / C9sus/G.. C7alt... / F13 ....D7#9 / C9sus/G C7alt
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But wait... there's more, for only... sorry, Here's another tune I wrote called "Jumpstart", it's basically two sections, first one uses standard sus resolve, and the second one uses Sus resolving up to the #11...
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OK... Here's the last sample, it's a re-harm of "Days of Wine and Roses". A little hipper use of sus chords. Here's the changes...
/ D-9 D-maj9 / C-11 A7b13 / Ab13sus Ab9#11 / Ab13sus D7alt /
/ Bbmaj7#11 / Abmaj7#11 D7#9 / G13sus G9#11/G13sus D7#11#9/
/Cma9 Abma7 Bbma7/Dbma7#11Ebma7#11Gb7#9#11 /F-9/E7#9b13/
/ Ebma7#11 / D-11 Db7alt / Abma7#11 / A7alt /
repeat 1st 8 bars...then
/Cma9 Ab7 Bb7 / Dbma7 Ebma7 Fma7 A7alt / D-11 /Bb13susGb7#11/
F6/9 E7#9 /A13sus F13 /Ab13sus A7alt / Bbmaj7#11 /
Here's a quick sample video...Reg
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A way I tend to think for is to play a maj9 arpeggio a step lower than the root of the 7sus.
The pentatonics work great too.
When they're functioning as a V, Dorian (from the V) works for me too...I just try not to hang on what would be the third of the sus chord...
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Thanks. You guys sure are helpful. I like the maj 9 idea, because it includes a few sounds. Say it was G7sus. The Fmaj9 would include an Am9 sound and close to a Dm9 sound. But I like the mixing up of pentatonic idea too, say taking A and D pentatonic as suggested.
and of course the F lydian idea works too, just avoiding mostly the B note... though in all honesty, I actually don't think the 3rd sounds as bad as I thought it would if in a high enough register. I actually kind of like it.
Also I think sort of playing in and around say a G and F triad works well.
I liked the little pentatonic scale idea too. It seemed more like a mode of a pentatonic scale but using just 4 notes gives you some cool sounds. and the other one from BrwnHornet was actually something I was practicing as well. I think it would sound good with the occasional phrygian b2 note added.
I am curious what potential "out" harmonies one might play against this chord. I would think that you would avoid b5/#11 since you really are trying to imply a sus 4. Maybe altered 9ths (flat or sharp) and a raised fifth work? Any suggestions for taking it a bit out. Maybe just cycling through some triads, or phrases.
For piano voicings, I really liked on C7sus playing C,F,Bb in the left hand and then various chords in the right, such as Bb, Dm, Gm with 7s and 9s added to these as well.
Also, I would think a lot of these ideas could be applied to regular dominant chords, just being careful to make sure the third is played when it needs to be.
And Reg, I just may be asking you about that reharm on Wine and Roses. I liked it.
Thanks again,
Brian
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Well thank you Reg,now along with scale work,arpeggios,chord work,theory,sight reading,transposition, repertoire,ear training and listening,you go and post a video with you playing octaves that would make even Wes prick up his ears,i just realized that i don't spend enough time on octaves,and i need to add it to my practice regime. Seriously though very inspirational stuff man,and for that sir,i thank you.
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re: "out" harmonies over sus chords - any of the twelve tones or any combination of any notes works as long as you hear the line and it resolves properly.
The most basic form is usually side stepping within pentatonics. It's a little cliche at this point, but it gets the job done and opens some doors.
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A little note about what works on any harmonic area... There are notes that are in the harmonic area and those that are not. A chord implies a harmonic area, a melodic phrase or even a single note with context can imply harmonic area. That's one of the reasons chord tones work so well... there's not much thinking involved.
It becomes more complex when we start to use notes not included in melody or chord changes... we now need to be aware of what's implied harmonically, and there are usually choices. It becomes even more complicated when you start to become aware of complete harmonic implications...
not simply the chord or two from a single bar, but from the complete tune. And the next level...what most musicians don't hear... when we make choices about adding notes to existing harmonic changes... we're implying a harmonic control system, which needs to be dealt with for generally entire tune. Doesn't mean your locked into that one concept... but you should be aware of how it influences your choices when you change that harmonic concept...( using notes not in harmonic implications from original melody and changes). Can be as simple as use of tri-tone subs and your choice of harmonic areas for those subs, (all the notes...the scales for changes, or if you like... the complete arpeggio...) There are choice with those subs and how you deal with those choices should be followed through.
Obviously... most are not aware of all the choices... but the random use of chromatic notes, even when used in mechanical patterns does not cover... There are many reasons why some players sound better than others especially after the novelty or newness wares off. Great players can basically make anything sound great... the problem is that most of us don't become great players, so when we have weak links in our playing... they stick out.
Generally most put in more than enough time on their instrument to become very good players,( I'll reserve the use of great), but we don't put the time in on the right stuff. We generally want instant results... ya da ya da... and most teachers cater to that principle.( I'm making no references to any teachers on this forum, there all different) So where I'm going is... it's up to you as a jazz player, or you striving to become a jazz player to make better choices to become that jazz player. It won't simply happen because of time put in... teachers won't get you there, they'll help when they can but at some point... you... need to make the choices... OK sorry, I hate to rant and rave... I'll go back to simple BS.
Basic choices of what collections of notes to use over sus chords. Don't let voice leading and resolution be your only source for concept of hearing/playing or choosing notes. Generally in jazz we don't want the least amount of movement, the smoothest resolutions. We go to great efforts to use different harmonic concepts just to avoid those choices...but there not random... We're all aware of traditional 4th or 11th resolutions, or deceptive resolutions, or even delay or extending resolutions. We seem to be alright with using different resolutions of tensions to camouflage, the traditional usage. We're almost into modal methodologies or different harmonic concepts to control how we hear/play over sus chords. They become somewhat non-resolving tonal centers. There are also pedal concepts that can influence choice of notes. Overall controlling concepts can be used as pedals,( don't get into traditional inverted and internal pedal BS), anyway harmonic pedals are great sources for controlling concept of adding notes to existing harmonic patterns. They do take some thought... Reg
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Good posts, all y'all. My favorites are pretty straight forward. Playing a "dorian" type minor 7 chord or scale outline over a 7sus a 5th away is really tasty. Makes me think of Debussy. Any sweet Dm9 (quartal, so what, close, Bill Evans rootless) voicing sounds great over a G7sus. You can play G "Mixolydian" outlines as well. The M3 is not a bad note above the P4 in the sus, IMHO. Playing outside over a sus is just as easy as playing outside over a static minor 7th chord; side-step, motif, inside-outside-inside... the usual BS.
Lol
Sus can lead to minors too. b9sus "phrygian" chords and lines work well in these cases.
In the end I hear all of this sus stuff as slash chords. Some common chord-scale with an alternate diatonic bass note.
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Reg, you are a tremendous musician - I often find I just enjoy listening to the clips you post, and forget to take in the educational point you are making (that's OK though, as I can always watch again). But this forum is lucky to have you, so a big thank you!
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Wow... thanks, Meggy. I'm still fairly passionate about music. I really am on this forum to raise the level of musicianship for guitarists, although I am making new friends which is very cool. I'm always searching for methods to open ears and help guitarist become aware. I guess if there's a little entertainment... that's cool... Reg
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So true
Originally Posted by Meggy
Reg, you are a tremendous musician - I often find I just enjoy listening to the clips you post, and forget to take in the educational point you are making (that's OK though, as I can always watch again). But this forum is lucky to have you, so a big thank you!
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Yup! I totally agree. Originally Posted by Meggy
Reg, you are a tremendous musician - I often find I just enjoy listening to the clips you post, and forget to take in the educational point you are making (that's OK though, as I can always watch again). But this forum is lucky to have you, so a big thank you!
wiz
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And it works for me Reg, I find your clips are a great way to learn and improve - understandable, inspiring, and indeed entertaining. Just thought a some credit was due. Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks so too, all the best! Originally Posted by Reg
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