Do you have worked out solos for jazz standards?

**Jazzaluk** · 06-20-2011, 10:41 AM

This could have been a good discussion if it wasn't derailed by the troll accusation.

**princeplanet** · 06-20-2011, 10:41 AM

No, I haven't but it sounds interesting. So, do you know if any of it is actually improvised?

**princeplanet** · 06-20-2011, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

This could have been a good discussion if it wasn't derailed by the troll accusation.

I didn't think he was a troll at first, but maybe Mr B can sniff em out better than I can. He- srs5 - certainly hasn't tried to stick around and defend his claim.

**Reg** · 06-20-2011, 11:08 AM

I've composed lots of music for films, TV etc... Ya da ya da... and many times I notated, (written out) interplay between instruments... My interplay, not the musicians performing. They can take liberties.... but not many, I articulate, phrase etc... One of the differences between Live Interaction as in Jazz is that it can go anywhere... depending on the skill level of the players. When the interplay is composed... it's basically going the same place all the time. Please don't get into the subtleties of performance and interpretation, that would be a different subject.

**ESCC** · 06-20-2011, 11:36 AM

Wow, it might be time for everyone to switch to decaf. I liked the OP's original question (A lot of great jazz players work out their solos note for note. I was just wondering if you have a solo you play everytime you play a standard. Lets say someone calls up autumn leaves. Have you worked out a solo?) and was looking forward to reading the different response from the many talented musicians that participate in this forum. I'm certain different situations lead to different approaches.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-20-2011, 11:36 AM

Reading back over my earlier post I don't think it's clear that when I say "not even close" I'm talking about the amount of interplay and the freedom.

But I want to get back to the op. Every jazz player has phrases, ideas, licks....but to say these guys are composing whole solos is off base. Sure, they might work a similar series of ideas on consecutive nights/ sessions, but these are world class improvisors we're talking about here.

**princeplanet** · 06-20-2011, 11:49 AM

cool, back to the original topic, even without the participation of he who started it.
OK, so we all surely agree that these world class players can play a different great solo every time if they choose. But, yes, from time to time they do repeat great chunks of prior solos. This is as true of Charlie Parker as it is of the guitar greats mentioned. It's a reasonable question - why do they choose to do this, when clearly, they don't have to? Is it a fall back for when the muse fails them? Do they just like certain ideas they feel they can't really improve on? Or, in the days where live gigs weren't taped as often, did they just phone it in, hoping no-one would notice?

Do you think these days repeating great chunks of solos is less likely due to more scrutiny?

**Billnc** · 06-20-2011, 11:52 AM

I like to think that my duo project is jazz. We do not perform pieces the same way twice, in my mind we would be performing standards and not 'jazz'. The tunes are not radically different but we do play around with them.

We just went into the studio. My solos were short but I had a couple of 'composed' solos just in case. I did not use them though.

The jazz masters seem to rarely have mapped out, through composed solos.

TH · 06-20-2011, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

cool, back to the original topic, even without the participation of he who started it.
OK, so we all surely agree that these world class players can play a different great solo every time if they choose...It's a reasonable question - why do they choose to do this, ...?
?

I was going to comment on this very thing when I saw the mushroom cloud go up and I ran for cover.

I used to love seeing a particular guitarist, he was such a great jazzer and he really rocked out too- great! (no names here) and then one night I thought to myself "I know exactly what's going to come up" and it did. Note for note. I had gotten to know an earlier date from a recording I had and I'd listened to it a lot in the interim. Note for note, several choruses. Comparing the tapes of the 2 nights, it was the same.
Why would someone do that, given the undeniable ability to do much more?
In this case it was coke, a lot of it, and music that played more from the gut and hands while the head took a ride in a cloud. He was so good at it that he had the crowd on their feet. I too was on my feet- out the door. It was years before I could brave the crowds to listen to him again.
Guitarists love to play from the hand, the hand with a mind of its own. That, coupled with a need for the lubricating rush of notes can put ideas in the back seat. So what do you get when the hand moves up and down that fast, the only goal to find that sweet spot that will make everyone jump up and scream? That's probably a moment when being original is a far second to that puddle on the floor.
David

**princeplanet** · 06-20-2011, 12:18 PM

Yeah, that might be just it in many cases, the need to wow the crowd with a surefire crowd pleaser with little risk. Maybe the audience may be to blame if it applauds prefab grandstanding more than the slower, more reaching ideas many of us go to see?...

TH · 06-20-2011, 12:27 PM

We have hit upon the deadly feedback loop. Guitarist as endorphin trigger. Add to it that a crowd that leaves happy=getting invited back.
A pre-arranged solo may not even been written out or learned ahead of time, it may just be reflexive nerve response triggered my crowd induced ganglionic frenzy. It takes great discipline and practice for a great musician with a good autopilot to choose the adventurous path- risking all for something that you don't know will work.
David

**Jazzaluk** · 06-20-2011, 12:34 PM

You don't think the audiance should be part of the music?

**princeplanet** · 06-20-2011, 12:36 PM

Say, T.H, care to PM divulge the guitarist in your story? I promise not to tell...

**princeplanet** · 06-20-2011, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

You don't think the audiance should be part of the music?

Sure, the artist deserves the audience it receives as much as the audience deserves the artist. Naturally, the bigger the audience, the greater the temptation to thrill them, hence the prefab material designed to "stun"...

I prefer small gigs where the artists is less inclined to show off.

**max chill** · 06-20-2011, 01:04 PM

Johnny Smith is a jazz guitar hero to many, and he had mind boggling chops, but every solo he ever played was composed and rehearsed from start to finish. That's why he never referred to himself as a jazz musician.

TH · 06-20-2011, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

You don't think the audiance should be part of the music?

For sure! Maybe the artist bears some responsibility to bring the audience to a level of consciousness and appreciation that is new to the collective audience. That takes a leap of faith, a leap that says: in the unknown is the chance at an even greater satisfaction.
An audience that will go out and support good music and keeps its ears open for the extraordinary is one to be treasured.
Risky. Improvisational. How 'bout that?
David

**Jazzaluk** · 06-20-2011, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Sure, the artist deserves the audience it receives as much as the audience deserves the artist. Naturally, the bigger the audience, the greater the temptation to thrill them, hence the prefab material designed to "stun"...

I prefer small gigs where the artists is less inclined to show off.

I also prefer small venues, but this comes with its own risks. Sometimes in small venues the musicians completely forget there is an audiance and are quite content to amuse themselves. The audiance I guess is supposed to be somehow be honored to witness the event.

In large venues I think there is a greater need to satisfy expectations. The music is not only heard from the speakers it can also felt through the audiances reaction. The "stun" factor does not come solely from the musician but the collective participation. I think that good musicians and performers know this and are more aware of the role that expectations and anticipation play in larger venues. Sometimes this means strong reference to familiar sounds ... maybe even pre-fab solos.

I believe that the head for Take Five was actually born out of an improvisation of Paul Desmond. The whole A section stems from a transcribed solo. (the bridge was written later I believe). It is possible that a very successful improv can become the tune itself.

**princeplanet** · 06-20-2011, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

I believe that the head for Take Five was actually born out of an improvisation of Paul Desmond. The whole A section stems from a transcribed solo. (the bridge was written later I believe). It is possible that a very successful improv can become the tune itself.

Yes, I think that was the rationale behind the MJQ, solos were "learned" based on their best improvs off the stage. But on stage there were few risks. Surprised that Johnny Smith chose not to improvise, maybe that's just the way it rolled with him...

**S_R_S5** · 06-20-2011, 04:13 PM

-brent mason playing the same solo as on the CD

-Pat martino using his original solo as an outline

-Brad Paisley playing this solo note for note

George B - sounds the same as every other recording

**S_R_S5** · 06-20-2011, 04:24 PM

Alright guys. I obviously see that some people here like to argue. I personally think music is music, and everyone can and will approach it differently. The greats probably approach each song differently. One song they might play something different, another it will be note for note. Who cares? It is not worth arguing trying to prove how stupid everyone else is.

Also Mr. B,
You said the greats wouldn't work out a solo. I think otherwise. If you were considered one of the greatest guitarist, would you want to risk your job and rep by sounding bad because you had a bad day?

**brwnhornet59** · 06-20-2011, 04:43 PM

It is all moot. I have heard many variations on the theme. Metheny approach's a lot of his best solo's from the past with similarity. I have heard him live and through recording doing many versions of Third Wind. That is one of his trade mark solo's. He will start it out treating it almost like a 2nd head, but once through it he is out there. I saw him do it with Bright Size Life, Have You Heard, Phase Dance, Letter Fro Home, James, etc....

So if recapturing the essence of what makes a solo great to the fans, wonderful! Note per note beginning to end? Nah.

Tunes like Last Train Home, yup. Same in and out. Different motif.

On the other hand. Will this discussion make any of us better players? Will we really glean more of an insight into these working Pros? Ideas are just that. Keeping it friendly is the nice thing to do. I like hearing every side of a story. I still make up my own mind and go on with my journey.

Great post's all! Peace

**mr. beaumont** · 06-20-2011, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by S_R_S5

Alright guys. I obviously see that some people here like to argue. I personally think music is music, and everyone can and will approach it differently. The greats probably approach each song differently. One song they might play something different, another it will be note for note. Who cares? It is not worth arguing trying to prove how stupid everyone else is.

Also Mr. B,
You said the greats wouldn't work out a solo. I think otherwise. If you were considered one of the greatest guitarist, would you want to risk your job and rep by sounding bad because you had a bad day?

Mason and paisley aren't jazzers. They have nothing to do with this conversation.

I already explained that a jazz player might use an outline...heck, every song has one, they're called the chord changes.

I think there's more of a misunderstanding going on here than an arguement. Improvisation isn't necessarily "free." They have parameters.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-20-2011, 05:53 PM

Okay, just watched 4 snippets of breezin. Solo was different every time. You do realize the solo doesn't even start until about 2 minutes into the song, right?

Now, the changes of the song are the same...george might use a few ideas here and there, octaves, etc...but there's pretty clearly not a set solo.

I'll listen to the metheny later...that's probably the same situation.

Oh, and trust me, great jazzers improvise. That's jazz. I can do it, and I'm far from great.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-20-2011, 09:12 PM

Just a/b'd the pat clip with the original recording. Again, solos were completely different. Still followed the chord chanes, of course.

Solo on "here to stay" starts about 2 minutes in.

So op, was it just not clear where the improv starts on these tunes? Did you think improv had to be completely different than the structure of the tune? Or were you yanking our chain a bit? You gotta understand, a comment like you made in 5he opening post is basically an indictment of jazz as a fraud. I'm sorry to be so nitpicky about debunking the comment, it's just that a lot of beginners read this board, and I don't want to make jazz any more confusing to them.

Now, as for paisley, vai, and brent, their chosen genre of music is not based on improv...in fact, mason gets paid good money because he can play things exactly right every time. However, he is a jazz lover and is perfectly capable of improvising too, when he plays in that style.

**Reg** · 06-21-2011, 09:50 AM

I've written out solos when I wanted to do something with it, like in a big band etc... I believe most musicians hear certain musical ideas in certain musical situations... and sometimes those ideas are repeated, maybe exactly sometimes or close, but I would think that would happen by chance. Most of the time we're not playing to backing tracks, so what we solo over is usually not the same either.
I've played jazz shows where everything is written out and after a few nights you start playing default solos... there working gigs, many of the players aren't jazz players and it becomes like a backing track... becomes somewhat boring, the solo basically becomes like it was written out... Years ago, most jazz gigs were up to six nights in a row at same location. The one guitarist I do remember playing some tunes in what might have been worked out was Martino, The Great Stream etc... Most of the jazz players didn't have worked out sets, let alone solos. Many of the night there were different players.
I have certain grooves and melodic ideas I dig and when I don't cover certain tunes for a while, I try and find those ideas ... But usually when I see the same tune a few nights in a row, I try and hear/play something new...
Jazz gigs are usually not shows, but when they get booked in that style, almost like rock or R&B gigs, somewhat like I read earlier about Benson's playing... it probable just happens... Personally... I would never write out a solo to play... although there are nights where I probable should have....