Playing outside

**bluesky** · 05-04-2011, 09:36 AM

Hi, I've read of playing outside, and I've heard it several times in solos. I want to know different ways by which I can play outside, and how to spice up my solo with it. Anyone who can help. Thanks in advance.

**jzucker** · 05-04-2011, 09:41 AM

Try these

Part I

Part II

Part III

part IV

**JakeAcci** · 05-04-2011, 10:48 AM

I tend not to play outside too often as the lack of acoustics generally hurt my tone. Just playing pop tunes with some friends it's cool but in a jazz context it's just always harder to find chairs, etc.

**VersatileJazzGuitarist** · 05-04-2011, 11:14 AM

Jack, these are wonderful vids. I've never seen such straightforward lesson in playing outside.

Thanks for posting, man.

**bako** · 05-04-2011, 11:29 AM

I like Jack's terminology Consonance/Dissonance much better than "outside".
Outside of what? There are simply levels of dissonance that emerge through different relationships to the starting harmony.
Once I am familiar with a sound it is "inside" my realm of understanding. Everything else is either an experiment or a mistake.
"Outside" gives the impression that a sound is somehow wrong yet people have been making beautiful music with these colors for quite awhile now. Experiments are positive and are an attempt to bring new sounds "inside". Being human, mistakes do occur but I don't seek them out. The more I understand dissonance and resolution, the better I am able to negotiate any unintended note played. Jack's videos are an excellent starting point to study some approaches to organize consonant and dissonant sounds.

**bluesky** · 05-04-2011, 12:40 PM

Thanks Jack, those are wonderful vids you posted. Thanks a bunch.

**jeffstritt** · 05-04-2011, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

I tend not to play outside too often as the lack of acoustics generally hurt my tone. Just playing pop tunes with some friends it's cool but in a jazz context it's just always harder to find chairs, etc.

Plus you have to worry about rain...

**Reg** · 05-04-2011, 05:02 PM

Hey Jack way cool... great stuff... it gets a little more difficult when the harmony moves and your structural system moves with the harmony...
But you be the man I dig your lessons...and your style... wish we were closer... would be fun. Reg

**JakeAcci** · 05-05-2011, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by jeffstritt

Plus you have to worry about rain...

Yeah exactly, another reason I prefer to be an inside player

**jzucker** · 05-05-2011, 07:58 AM

guys, i know you're being cute but can we stay on topic. This is a jazz guitar forum.

**JakeAcci** · 05-05-2011, 07:59 AM

Cmon Jack, it's a little humor.

**jeffstritt** · 05-05-2011, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

guys, i know you're being cute but can we stay on topic. This is a jazz guitar forum.

Wow, that's classy.

**jzucker** · 05-05-2011, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by jeffstritt

Wow, that's classy.

So is the same tired joke over and over. I'm actually trying to help this forum attract more pro-oriented players and thrive. We've already got TGP's pub and Harmony-Central's forums for everything else.

Let's try to make this forum something that pros want to come to and not hide in shame from.

**Bill C** · 05-05-2011, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

I'm actually trying to help this forum attract more pro-oriented players and thrive. We've already got TGP's pub and Harmony-Central's forums for everything else.

Let's try to make this forum something that pros want to come to and not hide in shame from.

+1

**MortenFaerestrand** · 05-05-2011, 11:33 AM

It's hard to give general guidelines about what workes if you want an outside sound, because really anything can work, it's really about phrasing. My favourite outside player is Kenny Garrett, he really combines inside outside / tension release in a fantastic way. So transcribing him would answer a lot of question for whoever is puzzled by the whole concept.

After transcribing it, of course one want to analyze it, but then one actually have some valid music to analyze, rather than trying to make music from the theoretical stanpoint.

**Markyboy** · 05-05-2011, 02:43 PM

What's happening these days..... first Reg's lessons, now this.... I have to quit my job, need more time to practice. Thanks a lot guys... this is food for a long, long time!!!

**Spirit59** · 05-05-2011, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by MortenFaerestrand

..My favourite outside player is Kenny Garrett, he really combines inside outside / tension release in a fantastic way. So transcribing him would answer a lot of question for whoever is puzzled by the whole concept...

I love the way he does that. He's really good at side-slipping without making it obvious.

**cosmic gumbo** · 05-05-2011, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Let's try to make this forum something that pros want to come to and not hide in shame from.

Only those afraid of the jazz police hide in shame.

**jeffstritt** · 05-06-2011, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

So is the same tired joke over and over. I'm actually trying to help this forum attract more pro-oriented players and thrive. We've already got TGP's pub and Harmony-Central's forums for everything else.

Let's try to make this forum something that pros want to come to and not hide in shame from.

I take exception to that comment. As a teacher, I see time and time again, students that don't care to learn or have anything to do with jazz because some eliteist made them think that weren't smart enough or good enough to do it. Generations of players get turned off to the entire genre because of this pompus attitude that so many jazz players have.

Right now jazz is musician's music. Nobody who doesn't play is going to go out and buy a Kenny Garret or Joshua Redman CD, it is proven as jazz accounts for less than 5% of record sales in the US. If we start alienating not only the general public, but fellow musicians as well who will be left to buy the music?

Mr. Zucker, with the gifts that you have on the instrument, if you had an attitude of diplomacy and graciousness you could really be an ambassador to the younger generation of players. Instead of just saying, "I only want to interact with pro players..." It is a shame that you seem to prefer to say (and not just in this thread mind you), "Look at me, I am a big shot, I'm right and you are wrong."

Having said that I am going to leave the forum for a while, this isn't worth getting my blood pressure up over.

**JakeAcci** · 05-06-2011, 11:10 AM

As the instigator of the not-that-great joke I'd like to say that I don't really care - if puns aren't for this forum I'll gladly refrain. Sorry to cause a big fuss.

**NSJ** · 05-06-2011, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by jeffstritt

I take exception to that comment. As a teacher, I see time and time again, students that don't care to learn or have anything to do with jazz because some eliteist made them think that weren't smart enough or good enough to do it. Generations of players get turned off to the entire genre because of this pompus attitude that so many jazz players have.

Right now jazz is musician's music. Nobody who doesn't play is going to go out and buy a Kenny Garret or Joshua Redman CD, it is proven as jazz accounts for less than 5% of record sales in the US. If we start alienating not only the general public, but fellow musicians as well who will be left to buy the music?

Mr. Zucker, with the gifts that you have on the instrument, if you had an attitude of diplomacy and graciousness you could really be an ambassador to the younger generation of players. Instead of just saying, "I only want to interact with pro players..." It is a shame that you seem to prefer to say (and not just in this thread mind you), "Look at me, I am a big shot, I'm right and you are wrong."

Having said that I am going to leave the forum for a while, this isn't worth getting my blood pressure up over.

This is a practioner's forum for players, students, pros of all types. I for one appreciate that very much. All the poster requested was that people keep it on topic and not get derailed. What's the big deal in that?????

Plus-if you're gonna throw in a joke, make sure it's actually funny, not "low hanging fruit". For cogent advice on good humor, please page Mr. Lovehandles.

**JakeAcci** · 05-06-2011, 11:34 AM

Ay yay yay can we please just stop? Again sorry for the joke, can we pleeeeeease have no more posts in this thread about it? End discussion? Again, really wasn't meant to be this huge derail. Just start another thread if you really want to discuss anything about this tangent.

**MortenFaerestrand** · 05-06-2011, 11:37 AM

Wow. I'm pretty new on this forum, and I am amazed. I mean, seriously, what the hell is up with all the arguing? All the "I am right and you are an idiot for disagreing" attitude, on a JAZZ GUITAR forum! Some people here here should get out their willie, find a measuring tape and be done with it.

**JohnW400** · 05-06-2011, 11:41 AM

Jack

There are quite a few pros here. I believe Tony Di Caprio, Jimmy Bruno, I think I saw Jack Grassel's name here once. There' s also Dr Matt Warnock and a bunch of others whose names escape me.

Then there are the other pros here like Reg, Mr B and yourself. (I've only done 4 gigs in the last 6 years and stopped teaching so I no longer refer to myself as a pro. Part time or otherwise)

I've noticed one thing about the pros. (except for Pat Martino on his AAJ thread) They usually don't present a lot of lesson material on a forum. From what I see they usually give a lot of anecdotal type stuff.

On the other hand we have a bunch of people here that contribute real , honest to goodness lesson quality material. They may not be a 'household' name in the jazz community but they take time out to write a CM, or a comp study, transcription, or make great videos.

Sure, I'd like to see someone like Vic Juris or even Pat Martino posting here but I doubt they would make these same types of contributions that some of the 'unheard of' pros are making here.

**jzucker** · 05-06-2011, 11:46 AM

Jeff, you're way off base with interpreting what I said. I'm simply talking about keeping the topics on discussion so that more serious players will contribute and we can keep the forum on topic with actual discussions about music. I'm not advocating anything of the sort of what you are accusing me of. I enjoy interacting with students. I just want to make this forum something that is enjoyable for discussing music and not just a silly little forum like TGP's pub has become for the most part.

Originally Posted by jeffstritt

Mr. Zucker, with the gifts that you have on the instrument, if you had an attitude of diplomacy and graciousness you could really be an ambassador to the younger generation of players. Instead of just saying, "I only want to interact with pro players..." It is a shame that you seem to prefer to say (and not just in this thread mind you), "Look at me, I am a big shot, I'm right and you are wrong."

Having said that I am going to leave the forum for a while, this isn't worth getting my blood pressure up over.